In this episode
Director General Lisa Rodgers PSM.
As Lisa Rodgers prepares to embark on the next step of her career, she reflects on her time as Director General of the Department of Education. She spent the past 6 years working towards better education outcomes for students across the state, passionate about making sure they have the best start in life. Lisa shares her highlights, challenges, memories and what work is left to be done to support students.
About Director General Lisa Rodgers PSM
Lisa Rodgers is passionate about education and is dedicated to improving educational outcomes for young people. With students and their lives at the focus of everything she does, Lisa has spent the past 6 years shaping education to provide better support for students and teachers.
In 2024 she was awarded Public Service Medal for her work during the COVID-19 pandemic to ensure schools stay open and the impact on student learning and achievement was minimal.
Transcript
MAK
I'm Marie-Anne Keefe, but please call me MAK.
It's not often you get the imprimatur to ask your boss any question you like, but that's my privilege today.
Our esteemed leader, Lisa Rodgers, is leaving and so has clearly thrown caution to the wind by agreeing to entertain me quizzing her about her time as Director General.
Summing up her 6 years in the top education gig in town is quite simple.
Lisa was recently awarded a public service medal for her service to the community during COVID-19. She somehow managed to rally everyone together in this remarkable system that we have to keep our schools open and our kids safe during the pandemic.
DG, welcome. You do realise what you've got yourself into here, don't you?
Lisa Rodgers
I'm slightly worried about it.
MAK
Only slightly?
Lisa Rodgers
Oh, yeah.
MAK
Well, I'm a bit nervous as well because you don't get to interview the boss very often, do you?
Lisa Rodgers
Oh, I'm being interviewed by the best, though. This is going to be fun.
MAK
So you know there's rules and you don't get to escape the rules.
The rules are you're not allowed to know the questions in advance, although my spies do tell me that perhaps you may have texted someone in my team and made an inquiry about what was on my top ten list of questions. Is that true, DG?
Lisa Rodgers
I sure did. I sure did. So you know me. I prep, right?
MAK
I know you.
Lisa Rodgers
Give me the questions, but I know one.
MAK
Yeah, I gave you one. I threw you a bone, okay?
Lisa Rodgers
Yeah, yeah, one.
I actually threw you a bone with what I think will be the hardest question for you in some way, so we'll see.
The second rule is you have to answer every question. You can't say it's too hard and you can't pass because you wouldn't let the kids do that, the students do that, would you?
Lisa Rodgers
No, no. No, exactly right. No, I'd come back to you.
MAK
Right, exactly right. And I'm going to come back to you.
So let's start. I'm not going to start with the question you already know. I'm going to throw that in.
Question number one.
Lisa Rodgers
Okay.
MAK
What is your favourite memory of all your time here, of the six years you've been here? What is the thing that you take with you as being a favourite moment or a favourite memory?
Lisa Rodgers
There's just so many.
MAK
I know. There must be one that just comes to your mind though.
Lisa Rodgers
I just, I love being in classrooms. And so the best days are when I'm in a classroom. And I do have a passion for primary, I'd say.
MAK
I think you're a frustrated primary school teacher.
Lisa Rodgers
Yeah, well, when I retire, I'm just going to go and help out in a kindy class. And everyone says to me, that would be awful.
I don't know. It's just if you're having a bad day, go to a kindy class.
And I remember going to a kindy class one day, and there was this little girl who was working so hard on her reading, and she was doing so well. And I knew the back story about this little girl.
And anyway I spent some time in her classroom and after she came up and she'd drawn and coloured in a little heart and she came up to me and she said ‘thank you so much for sitting and listening to me reading I've worked really really hard on that’. And I was like, so now I'm like tears and so that heart is on my desk and it just sits with me every day.
MAK
On your desk upstairs?
Lisa Rodgers
Yeah because that's our job. Like that's, you know, when all the things are going on in the world, you know, in the Department of Education and the things that we deal with, that's our purpose.
Every single one of those children.
Yeah.
MAK
You don't know this because you don't see yourself the way we do. But whenever we talk about the students and the kids and the classrooms and the teachers and you being with the children, your whole face, your whole demeanour changes. You light up and you have this joy in your eyes and you look like a different person.
Lisa Rodgers
Best job in the world. 60,000 people in the Department of Education. We believe in the power of education. There is nothing more important in life than making sure that our children are equipped with foundation skills and they're equipped with an education because it sets them up for their life.
There's nothing more important than that.
MAK
Which leads to my next question. The part of the job you love the most is that, or you've loved the most, is that the purpose? Is it the purpose that you've loved the most or what is it about this? Is it the why?
Lisa Rodgers
Yeah, it's the why. I'm completely connected to the why and it's not just this job. It's been my whole career pretty much. Nobody can take an education away from you. If you're educated, you are provided with choice. You're provided with opportunities.
On every indicator, chances are you're going to have a great life, and the magic is that is in the power of our hands.
So there are lots and lots of other things that people would like us to do, but in the hands of all of our educators, and I extend that to teachers and beyond, we have the ability to be able to provide that opportunity for our children and students. How cool is that?
MAK
Pretty cool.
Lisa Rodgers
Yeah.
MAK
It means that you get up every day and you love coming to work.
Lisa Rodgers
That's right. It's my job.
MAK
Well, it's not a job, actually. It's a calling. Yeah. It's your calling, and I think one of the most inspiring things about being led by you and sitting on this corporate executive is that it's everybody's calling. That's here. Everybody has the same calling. It's actually not a job. It's a way of life.
Lisa Rodgers
And not negotiable.
So one of the things about the way I lead, is I'm also a public servant. And so that means I'm in the service of people. And it doesn't matter where you are in the department, actually you're in the service of those in the profession that are delivering those outcomes for kids.
And so I'd like to think that everybody is connected to that purpose, that why.
Whether you're, I don't know, gardening, in comms, in audit. The reason we're here is to be able to deliver a service for those people in schools and the people that we serve that are the students.
MAK
It's not all beer and Skittles though, is it?
Lisa Rodgers
No, we have our moments, don't we?
MAK
So what is the part of the job that you're absolutely not going to miss? I have my own ideas about this, but what's the part of the job that you're going to be happy to say goodbye to?
Can I give you one? I'm going to give you time to think about that because I'm really nice.
One of the things I think you're going to be very happy to say goodbye to is that overnight bag.
Lisa Rodgers
Oh the overnight bag.
MAK
And for people that don't know, Lisa is very diminutive. She's tiny. She's like a little doll. And she has this thing called the overnight bag, which is very deceiving because you have an image of just like something you take on a plane as an overnight bag, but this is effectively a suitcase case that is almost bigger than you. And every night she takes it home and it's full of files and reports and documents and the reading that you have to do and all the documentation and paperwork that has to be done before the next day.
And she walks out, wheels this out every night.
Lisa Rodgers
Yeah.
MAK
Now you're not going to be unhappy to see the back of that, surely?
Lisa Rodgers
That'd be great. Like that would be great.
So look, I've never ever, like I've never kind of resented the work of the overnight bag. And the family have just got used to it.
MAK
The overnight bag?
Lisa Rodgers
The overnight bag, yeah.
MAK
It's like the other member of the family.
Lisa Rodgers
It's the other member of the family. That's right.
So, you know, you get home, you make tea. Right, okay, out comes the bag. But it's like teachers, right, planning lessons and doing all the work that they do, all the stuff that they do, that people do, that is not seen.
So, yeah, I'm really looking forward to not – maybe I'll get a better handbag, right? So I'm looking forward to not having to do that. But things that I won't miss in the job, some of the things that aren't aligned, like some of the kind of things that we have to do just because we've had to do them, it's, ‘oh, okay, you've just got to do them, you just get on and do them’. And the thing that probably frustrates me the most is when people are coming at a decision or a thing, isn't student-centred.
You know how kind of, you know, people disagree on things but usually you can sort things out in terms of disagreements if you put the student at the centre. What's the right thing to do for this student, you know?
MAK
And if it's not about the kids, you don't want to know about it.
Lisa Rodgers
Well, you know, it's not my first priority really.
But, yeah, there's not many things I'll miss.
MAK
I look forward to seeing the new handbag.
Lisa Rodgers
New handbag.
MAK
You can send me a picture of that, will you?
Lisa Rodgers
Yeah, I will.
Now, this will be a little bit like choosing your favourite child.
Lisa Rodgers
Yeah.
MAK
I need to know which school is your favourite. Out of 832 of them, I know this is hard for you, but there has to be one. You can only have one, all right? I'm warning you, just one.
Lisa Rodgers
Every school has a memory.
MAK
All 832 of them?
Lisa Rodgers
Pretty much.
MAK
Wow.
Lisa Rodgers
Pretty much. Yeah. And so when I go to the newly appointed principal's dinner and, you know, they'll introduce themselves to me and then they'll say their school, I've actually got to work on my face because I don't want to give the game away. ‘Oh, that's school, great’.
And then the thing is they move, right? So that's really hard when the principal moves schools because then, you know, you're kind of attached to the wrong place in my mind.
MAK
Look. If you had to pick one.
Lisa Rodgers
If anyone ever gets an opportunity, right. Go to Wananami Remote Community School. It's the most inspirational school.
So you'll go to Wananami Remote Community School and you will see the best teaching in the world. And that best teaching is replicated in many of our schools across WA. And what I'm really proud of is that's been a focus of ours over the last couple of years.
And it isn't classroom by classroom. It's whole school instruction, which is evidence-based, class on class on class, school on school on school.
If you were to walk into Wananami, you just get a snapshot of that brilliance, and it's sensational.
The thing as well with Wananami is, so the things that make a great school, great leader, leadership, great staff, and educationally powerful connections with communities.
When you walk into that school, you would not be able to differentiate the community to who the staff are.
MAK
Yeah, right.
Lisa Rodgers
It's completely integrated. And then the absolute gold is the fact that it is two-way. It's not two-way in a particular curriculum area. It's two-way.
This is about the Western Australian curriculum and ways of being, knowing and doing as Aboriginal people and as Aboriginal learners. And the staff take a lot from each other in regards to that.
It's, if anyone ever gets an opportunity, go. And there are multiple schools like that.
MAK
I'm proud of you for choosing just one. I'm very proud of you.
Lisa Rodgers
Looma was great the other day too.
MAK
Stop it. No, no, that's it. No more.
Next question. What is the naughtiest thing that you have done in the job?
Lisa Rodgers
Oh.
MAK
I saw you do something naughty.
Lisa Rodgers
I've done a lot of naughty, actually. I know. I know. It's levels of naughtiness.
MAK
Well, it is.
Lisa Rodgers
It's levels of naughtiness.
MAK
Do you want me to share my naughty story with you? I don't even think you won't even remember this, but we were going up the stairs here at Central Services one afternoon. It was quite late, probably 4 o'clock-ish, and most people had gone.
Now, you have 2, is it sausage dogs?
Lisa Rodgers
Yes.
MAK
Right. So you came through the doors and it was almost like you were passing through, picking up the overnight bag on the way home.
Lisa Rodgers
It’s so embarrassing.
MAK
So you're on the escalators with your 2 puppies, adorable, and they're just sitting there. Up they go. And there was this gentleman who walks in the building who clearly didn't know who you were and he turned to you and he said, ‘there's no animals allowed in this building, those dogs aren't allowed here’.
And you sort of look up completely busted with this complete look of surprise and shock on your face and you turn around and say to him, ‘oh, really? Really?’
Lisa Rodgers
That's so true.
MAK
And I'm standing there thinking he clearly doesn't know who she is and I almost half expected you to say, ‘well, we should talk to the Director General about that’. But off you went. You just sort of like shook your head and kept going and walked up the stairs and went off with the puppies and he gave you the death stare.
Lisa Rodgers
He did. That was so embarrassing. That was honestly so embarrassing.
It was so embarrassing because, and do you know, I've never broken that rule since?
I've never have. I've never brought the dogs in ever since.
MAK
But you know what we did? We ended up smuggling a puppy into Comms one day because when I saw you do that, I thought, well, maybe. Yeah.
Anyway, we got a call from like facilities saying we believe that you have a puppy in the building and it needs to be removed immediately.
So that's what happened to us. So is that the naughtiest thing that you've done?
Lisa Rodgers
That was pretty naughty. Yeah, no, that was very naughty because I broke the rules.
In my defence, I actually didn't know the rule. I'm not sure I completely agree with the rule.
MAK
No, I know you don't.
Lisa Rodgers
You know, but I've never done it since. Because actually I am a rule, like I keep rules.
MAK
You're a stickler.
Lisa Rodgers
I'm a stickler for rules.
MAK
Yeah, stickler. But you need to be as the Director General, just a tip.
Lisa Rodgers
Yeah, like I will stick to the rules.
However, the kind of naughtiness in me is I will amend the rules if they don't make sense.
MAK
Right. So what is one of those rules that you've amended, Director General?
Apart from the no dogs allowed rule?
Lisa Rodgers
Oh, so things like, again, it's the student focus.
‘Well, we're not allowed to do that, you know, with that student, you know’. Why not? Show me the rule that says we're not allowed to do that.
And so if it's the right thing to do, then do the right thing.
So, again, this has been a bit about my leadership. You have to do the right thing, and if the rules don't really fit the right thing, then actually.
MAK
You need to be a bit naughty?
Lisa Rodgers
Well, and also look at what, it's our opportunity to be able to amend things sometimes to make sure they fit the context.
So rather than kind of naughtiness, it's actually about taking the responsibility seriously in regards to how do we administer a system here that is fit for our staff and our students.
MAK
And being flexible and not being stuck somewhere and not being able to respond to the needs of our kids.
Lisa Rodgers
That's right.
MAK
So that's not naughty.
No, I'm not quite sure you really answered that question, but I'll take it.
Looking back at your time in the role, what is the one thing, if you had your time all over again, that you'd do differently? Or is there nothing that you'd do differently?
I can see Lisa cycling back through the last 6 years, almost like flashbacks, memories going through your eyes right now.
Lisa Rodgers
Yeah. I, so I don't know if it's about doing things differently.
So, look, I have been absolutely blessed in terms of, because leadership's team sport, yeah? So, and I've drawn on the leadership of the department and by that I also mean the wider department, all the schools out there.
I've listened, I've done my best to understand the kind of the issues on the ground and how best to respond. And so, people have been really gracious in terms of providing their expertise and providing advice, and that's been really, really very helpful.
It's not about doing something differently. I wish I'd gone harder and faster on some things.
MAK
Is that even possible for you to go harder and faster? I've never seen anyone go as hard and as fast as you do.
Lisa Rodgers
Yeah, it's not so much different. Yeah, it's harder and faster.
I wish I had gone harder and faster in regards to Aboriginal outcomes. I don't know how I would have done that, but I wish, like we've made incredible gains over the last few years.
MAK
I know you feel it's a job unfinished.
Lisa Rodgers
It's unfinished and it'll just be ongoing and, you know, there was lots of work that was done in regards to the Aboriginal Cultural Standards Framework. We built on that and there's work to do.
That's one thing.
The quality teaching strategy and what I wish, I want the quality teaching strategy, the Centre of Excellence work, the Kimberley Schools project and the targeted teaching in the Midwest, I really need them to come together and through the expertise that we've got out there and all of the expertise in our metro schools, that needs to be consolidated and we're at the point now where we can articulate what our Western Australian pedagogy looks like and we should be able to scale that fast across our system.
Everything is there.
MAK
You might need to stay then.
Lisa Rodgers
Yeah. There's grief in leaving. There's grief in leaving.
MAK
Talk to me about that.
Lisa Rodgers
So it was a decision, right?
So everyone's got a clock and I've got a clock in terms of, you know, when is the time. I'm not a very good chief executive to keep things in a steady state. You know, I'm actually always looking for how do we evolve improving.
I didn't want to be in this role without being 100% on my game. It was really important for me that I continue to do the job really, really well. I didn't want to get to the point where I was rolling my eyes. I wasn't anywhere near that point. But I knew I'd done my best. And so it was time.
So, you know, I'm looking forward to the next steps. But also, it will be really hard to leave the system because I've loved my job. I love the people. I love what we do. And I think that everyone does a really, really good job.
That's hard to leave. It's also the place, you know. It's the people and the place.
And that's what I'll miss. Yeah.
MAK
That was question number 10, so you don't need to answer that now. But I'm going to go back to question number seven. This is a one-answer question. Who is the person that you most admire in this system, in our department?
Lisa Rodgers
Can I have 2 people?
MAK
Okay, you can have 2 people. I'll accept an answer of two.
Lisa Rodgers
Two. Okay. The first is one of my greatest professional teachers, which is a guy called Peter Hughes, and he's the public sector commissioner, was the public sector commissioner in New Zealand, and he led a lot of agencies in New Zealand. And I've pretty much for my whole life been a public servant, and he taught me to be a really, really good public servant. And the view that you get of a public servant is this kind of stuffy bureaucrat, follows the rules, yadda, yadda, yadda. And that's not good public service at all. The public service that I know and I hope I've been is somebody that is in the service of people and takes their accountability seriously in that we should be delivering for our staff and our students.
And he taught me to do that. So it's kind of leading with head and heart. I owe a lot to him. He was tough, but I learnt a lot. He was great.
MAK
Well, we must make sure we get a copy of this to him.
Lisa Rodgers
He's out of this world sensational.
MAK
He taught you well.
Lisa Rodgers
He did, like he did.
MAK
And the second?
Lisa Rodgers
It's my leadership team. Again, leadership is team sport, yeah? And we all come together.
We're all lovely people individually, every single one of those leadership team members is humble and in the service wants to deliver outcomes.
They're all invested in solving issues and supporting our staff and delivering outcomes for kids. We're all there for kids and I suppose actually if I think about the team they're all thoroughbreds and like they're all really good at their craft. If you think about the team, if you think about, we say about Martin Clery, you know, he's the smartest guy in the room, like he is.
We had Kevin O'Keefe, Paul Bridge, Jim, Mary, in her world, in regards to professional standards and conduct, I mean, the career that she's had, you.
So they're all thoroughbreds, you know, Melesha. And with that comes a particular disposition. And we could all work individually, right? As our own, we bring this expertise.
No, no, that team work as a work family and they've led this organisation superbly.
MAK
And with that, my observation is, is a level of self-sacrifice on behalf of every person that sits around that table?
Lisa Rodgers
Yeah, undoubtedly self-sacrifice. And we see that replicated across our department and in our schools day in, day out. And it's just to be commended. it.
MAK
What has been your scariest moment in the job? What has scared you the most? You're not a person that scares easily.
Lisa Rodgers
No.
MAK
Have you been scared?
Lisa Rodgers
Look, there's a reality to this for our people out there in some communities. And if you're talking about scary moments, it was only yesterday I was talking to Fiona, who used to be in one of our remote communities, and she'd talk about just walking around the place and you've got to be on your game because there are some risky things out there, you know, not least of which is the wildlife.
MAK
The animals.
Lisa Rodgers
The animals.
I've run. I've run everywhere I've been in the world, right? I just get off the plane and I run.
There are places in Western Australia you just wouldn't run in the dark, you know?
So there's that kind of scare. But then there are the moments, the leadership kind of scares, where I'm just trying to think.
MAK
COVID would have been pretty scary.
Lisa Rodgers
Not scary. Intense.
MAK
You didn't lose sleep?
Lisa Rodgers
I lost sleep, but that was an intensity thing. And then there's been scary leadership decisions where I've not quite been sure, is this the right decision? Don't know if it is.
But look, if you get it wrong, people get things wrong, I've got a motto, apologise. So say sorry, own it, fix it, don't do it again.
MAK
You talk often about making mistakes and the fact that that is just part of the gig.
Lisa Rodgers
Oh, it's just the way it is. It's just the way it is.
A good day in my office is when people come up to me and say, ‘actually, Lisa, I've screwed up or something's happened. Something's happened’. The trust for them to be able to tell me that, the fact that they're owning it and then they're going to go away and fix it. That's exactly what you want.
You just need to know when there are issues and how we're going to fix it.
And then we'll reflect on what did we do that led us to this position. Yeah.
MAK
Final question. You've got to have a sense of humour to do this job, surely. And we have had some good laughs, some belly laughs about all sorts of different things.
What is the funniest thing one of our kids has said or done? There's probably hundreds of them. But what is one of the funniest things that's ever been said to you?
Lisa Rodgers
The funny moments are in assembly when the kids go off script, you know?
And then you think, and you know, but the thing is what they don't know is all of their staff are sitting there and their staff know that the director general is in the house and they're like ‘don't go there don't say that please sit down it's like it's okay it's okay’.
So the funniest moments have got to be assembly moments where crazy things go on and everyone just keeps in in their chair, like just dancing.
MAK
Or cringing. Cringing in their chair.
Lisa Rodgers
Yeah, but there have been some hilarious moments.
MAK
I know. I see we laugh almost every day, really.
Lisa Rodgers
We laugh every day.
MAK
We have to.
Lisa Rodgers
And it's the, ‘and they did what?’
MAK
Or are we actually having a conversation about this?
Lisa Rodgers
Yeah. ‘Is this really happening?’
MAK
Yeah.
If I was a magic genie and I could grant you one wish upon leaving, what would that wish be for all of us left behind?
Lisa Rodgers
Consolidate the Western Australian evidence in regards to impactful teaching and get it into every school fast, like fast.
And the thing that's going to do that is if we continue to break down the barriers in regards to who holds what knowledge, because this knowledge is in our hands.
And one more.
MAK
I'll grant you two wishes, okay?
Lisa Rodgers
Continue on that culturally responsive journey. Continue.
That's just sensational.
MAK
On a personal note, you have left an indelible imprint on my career.
You have shown me what it's like to lead with a brilliant mind, a passionate soul and a loving touch.
You've been fierce, you've been brave, strong, kind, creative and you've been committed.
Sometimes you're a little scary, but only when you need to be. You have a mind that's bigger than the planet. I have watched you work around the clock, literally, with no concern for yourself, but total care for our kids.
You are a Stateswoman who has changed us, all of us in this department, and every student who's been under your care.
One day, when I grow up, I really want to be like you.
Lisa Rodgers
Ditto I think you're fabulous MAK, I just think you're fabulous.
Communications is a strategic arm yeah? You have done an incredible job in making sure that people are acknowledged people are recognised and actually helped us tell the story of public education in WA, it's a great story to tell. Best place in the world to be.
MAK
It's my privilege.
From everybody, thank you, it's not goodbye, as I know our paths will cross again. So it's just farewell for now.
And in your own words, go well, DG. Go well.
Lisa Rodgers
Thank you, MAK. Thank you.
MAK
This podcast was recorded on Whadjuk Noongar land. We acknowledge the traditional custodians and pay respects to their elders past, present and future.
Notes
Director General Lisa Rodgers PSM was awarded a Public Service Medal, read here to learn more.
More information about Lisa Rodgers embarking on the next step of her career here.