In this episode
MAK and Kevin O'keefe
Kevin O'Keefe is preparing for his third and, probably, final attempt at retirement. He has spent 53 years in public education, as a teacher, principal, executive director and, more recently, as a member of the Department's corporate executive, advising on ways to improve education outcomes for Aboriginal people.
About Kevin O'Keefe
Kevin O'Keefe has dedicated his adult life to education. It all began when he entered the classroom as a teacher at Margaret River Senior High School 53 years ago. He has been a deputy principal, principal, executive director and principal consultant advising the Department's executive. His journey includes a period when he lead a multi‑campus remote community school in the Western Desert as Executive Principal of the Ngaanyatjarra Lands School. Kevin is a Noongar person with roots in Yued country. He joined the Corporate Executive in 2019 to provide advice and guidance drawn from his extensive experience in Aboriginal education in school and system contexts.
Transcript
MAK
A warm welcome, I’m Marie-Anne Keeffe but please call me MAK.
Joining me today is a man who has changed the lives of thousands of children through education. More especially, he's helped make a world of difference to the experience of our Aboriginal students in public schools.
Kevin O'Keefe started work for the Department of Education on the 1st of January 1971.
That's over 53 years ago. During that time, he has been a teacher at schools from Albany to the Eastern Goldfields, a principal from Mount Barker to Ngaanyatjarra Lands, an executive director of teaching and learning, and more recently, a member of the corporate executive as the principal advisor for Aboriginal Education Teaching and Learning.
And next week, Kevin is about to retire.
As a fellow member of the leadership team, I know firsthand how deeply loved and valued Kevin is professionally and personally.
He's regarded as the wise owl. Notice, Kevin, I left out the old here.
There's no old here, Kevin. And we're already mourning at the fact that you are going even though you haven't even left the building.
So I'd like to make you very welcome.
Thank you for agreeing to this podcast. Have you ever done a podcast before, Kevin?
Kevin O'Keefe
No, I'm 75 years of age, so that happens in another generation.
MAK
Well, no, it's happening in your generation now so I think it's very fitting that before we let you leave the building, that you actually have the experience of our Ed Talks WA podcast.
So welcome along. What I'd like to do today, and I don't want you to be scared by this, but I'd like to play a bit of a game today, and I'm calling it Kevin's top 10.
Okay. Now, there are a few rules to this game. You're just smiling and laughing at me across the table.
The few rules are this. You're only allowed to pick one answer for each question and that's going to be a little bit hard for some of these questions.
It's going to be like picking your favourite child, but that's the rule.
There's no passing on any questions as well. So, you can't say, ‘I don't want to answer that’, and you can't answer my question with a question.
All right?
Kevin O'Keefe
So I'm skewered.
MAK
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
We're going to have a lot of fun. But before we do, and thank you for agreeing to all of this, I really would love to hear a little bit about you, your background and what led you to a career in teaching.
Kevin O'Keefe
I don't know what led me to a career in teaching. My father tells me from when he was quite old, in fact in his 80s, and had never revealed this to me before that I did come home from my first year in primary school saying I wanted to be a teacher.
MAK
Wow.
Kevin O'Keefe
So I have no idea how the mind of a 5 year old works or how on earth they came to that opinion.
But for some reason, it was not a fireman or a racing car driver or anything, it was a teacher.
And the one thing that's remained consistent in my life is I've never had a regret about that and it's been the only occupation I've ever seriously thought about.
MAK
It's sort of, was it in your DNA? Like a five-year-old with that sort of a calling is so strange, but it's so fitting for you 53 years later. You must feel like it's something that really was in your blood from the time you were born.
Kevin O'Keefe
Well, I have no idea where it came from, there was nothing like that in my family. Neither of my parents went to high school in the way we understand it now.
My mother, when she was taken away, was taken to a convent in the country to be trained as a domestic to work for farmers in the local Wheatbelt.
But there was no such thing as an educated person in my family. There was no one who was a teacher and so on. So where on earth it came from, I can't tell, but it's felt like a perfect fit for over 50 years now, really.
Well, in fact, over 70 years, really.
And so it's never felt like a job, it's always felt like a vocation. It just seems like it's something, I'm thinking back to my past Catholic life, something that I was called to do.
MAK
The past Catholic life, please note.
So when we go back to 1971, the 1st of January 1971, were there many Aboriginal teachers at that time? What was it like for you as an Aboriginal person coming into the department?
Kevin O'Keefe
Well, I knew about Charlie Perkins. I mean, he wasn't a teacher, but like the notion of Aboriginal people as educated people wasn't really high on the radar screen.
And I remember, it was either my first or second year because I was trained as an English teacher and so I was an English teacher at Margaret River. And in those days, the department used to have subject superintendents, and my subject superintendent came down to see me in the first or second year and she made an observation during her visit and said, ‘Kevin, one day you're going to be a credit to your people’.
And I was absolutely shocked by that because I was a 20-odd-year-old kid just learning how to be a teacher and at that stage, I was more preoccupied with the fact that I had graduated as a teacher but didn't have a clue how to teach.
And I was desperately trying to grab every little lesson and trick that I could learn to learn how to be a teacher. So I was sort of shocked by that and to be honest, a lot of the view of me as an Aboriginal student had been hidden from me.
My mother tried to pretend that we were Greeks, not that there's many Anadopolises or something in the family. So quite how the name O'Keeffe or Brown, as she was known, got to be Greek.
But my father did sort of tell me at one stage that when I was at school, one of the Christian brothers called him in and said, ‘oh, Mr O'Keefe, I understand Kevin's an Aboriginal student and that he's doing pretty well at school. We want to know if we can assist in some way like a scholarship or something’.
And my father was outraged and said, you know, like you're saying, we can't stand on our own two feet? And if he's not capable of doing this in his own way, well, we're not looking for a helping hand. Thank you very much.
But a lot of those, my father also didn't tell me that at that that stage either, and so this comment from the superintendent came absolutely out of the blue and I was gobsmacked by it and thought, I don't know how I'm going to carry this expectation on my shoulders and probably promptly forgot it.
MAK
But now looking back on that comment, what do you think about it 53 years later or more than that?
Kevin O'Keefe
I think I'll probably never say that to a younger person in my life because all you can be is the person you are. You can't be a spokesperson for a group of people, and I suppose all you can do is the best that you can do personally, really.
MAK
So following on from that, question number one, what would you say is your greatest achievement?
Kevin O'Keefe
My three daughters. Yes, it's not, in a way, it is part of my career because I'm absolutely chuffed by the fact that two of them in their later years have decided to become teachers.
And it's not why I'm proud of them. I'm proud of them because I think my three daughters are just extraordinary, strong, intelligent women and you know, I think they're the sort of people who are going to change the lives of a lot of students themselves.
MAK
But, of course, for you to have them carry on your work, do you think it was having a dad as a teacher, principal, executive in the education system, is that something that inspired them? Have they said that to you?
Kevin O'Keefe
They probably say it on Father's Day. Look, you know, I mean, they are not only my greatest pride, but they are also my strongest critics.
MAK
Aren't all children, Kevin? Aren't all children?
Kevin O'Keefe
My wife would well say that because, look, I am profoundly taken aback by how good they are.
I mean, at their age, I would love to have been as insightful and as wise and as competent as they are and I just wonder where it came from. And my wife says, well, they've been surrounded about all their lives but there's something in me that says, actually, this is something entirely individual that they've constructed themselves. And that's really what I admire about them.
MAK
They're so much more the better version of us.
Like I look at my sons and I just go, ‘oh, if only I had been that good’. They're everything I would have liked to have been at their age.
Kevin O'Keefe
Absolutely.
I'm absolutely very proud of them and I think they carry themselves spectacularly well, not just personally but professionally as well.
MAK
So what would you say, question number 2, is your biggest regret?
Kevin O'Keefe
My biggest regret I guess is that I've always, it's probably one of the things I've always seen life as a process, that it just rolls on and on and on. And now, as I'm about to contemplate my third retirement, and probably the final one.
MAK
You're a repeat offender, I hear.
Kevin O'Keefe
That's right. This time they're probably going to escort me off the premises, so this is probably the final one.
And so the idea of it being a process means that the process will come to an end and there's quite a lot of unfinished work. And I suppose, yeah, there's unfinished work. I feel confident that the world is set up well to actually progress the work. But, you know, frankly, I've just loved doing it.
MAK
You've loved doing it, which segues beautifully into question number 3. What has been your greatest joy?
There's probably been many moments of joy.
Kevin O'Keefe
There have. Look, it's built really around seeing people succeed, especially people who've struggled with things and who've got really good.
I mean, I remember I have this vivid memory of this gorgeous Year 12 student I had. I taught her in English literature, Year 11 and 12 literature. And she was unbelievably hardworking and kept regularly writing extra essays and asking me if I would respond to them, and I could just see how hard she's working.
But there is, probably for a maths teacher, it's when kids get algebra. But for an English teacher, when kids actually get literature, actually understand what's going on there.
And then sometime about May, June of Year 12, she just got it. And it was just a joy to see that happening.
And I think for me, that's the thing that ignites your light as a teacher, just seeing kids get it and thinking, wow, if I've contributed to that, that's actually an added joy.
But just to see kids grow and develop, I think, is probably the greatest joy.
MAK
That eureka moment, there it is, right there. It's all come together.
That's right. Wow, that's, yes, that's inspiring, I guess. And that's what's kept you going.
Kevin O'Keefe
Well, that's what floats teachers' boats, really, just seeing kids really fly, really. And, you know, you sort of hope that that works for all kids, you don't always see the benefits of it.
And one of the joys certainly is bumping into students that you've taught years and years later, sometimes decades later.
And I've had a couple of adults come to me and saying, look, I became an English teacher because of you and you think, well, to have that impact on somebody's life is just humbling but it's also incredibly joyful as well.
MAK
So you've really, in terms of roles in the department, there's not a lot you haven't done.
Principal, teacher, executive director, corporate executive member. Out of all of those roles, what would you say has been your favourite?
Kevin O'Keefe
Can I only choose one?
MAK
You know they're the rules, Kevin.
Kevin O'Keefe
And I just broke the second rule by asking you a question.
MAK
I know, I'm pretending that didn't happen.
Kevin O'Keefe
Look, being a principal is just a fantastic job, honestly. Honestly, it comes as a shock when you come into Royal Street because as a principal, you genuinely are a remover and a shaker.
That's because if you see a problem, you can actually mobilise people to come and say, like, ‘have we got this problem right? Are we clear about it? Like, what do we think our solutions are?’
And then you've generally got enough resources to move things around.
It's an incredibly powerful and empowering job because it gives you not only the opportunity to be able to do that stuff yourself, but to model thoughtful decision-making to actually say, ‘well, actually what's really important here is not what I'm doing here, but like what you'll do when I've gone’.
Like as my mother used to say, always make sure you leave the place in a better state than when you found it. And I'd hope that's what I've done.
MAK
And when you say it was a shock coming to central services, is that because you don't have the contact with the students?
You're not continually surrounded by that energy, which I know for you is a life force, right? You're such a people person.
I've only been here a short time, but from the moment I met you, there is a warmth and a connection that you share with people, a very unique one. And the students would have absolutely fed off that.
What has that been like for you? Or what was that process like for you moving from being the centre in a school to coming to central services where you didn't have that?
Kevin O'Keefe
I mean, I think the sense of immediacy of like having in your image a particular child when you make a decision, I think is a really powerful thing.
But I've got to say, it's probably more prosaic than that.
It's that actually, when I was an executive director back in 2001 to 2007, I didn't actually have a budget.
I just had a whole bunch of directors who had budgets and somehow I had to influence them to do stuff.
And so, you know, people are incredibly inconvenient. They have their own views and motivations and bringing someone to a particular point of view is not the same as hitting an iron bar and seeing how far it expands.
People do their own thing and so it's a job of cajoling, corralling, coordinating people and it's not like building a brick wall when you can step back and look at it.
This seems like it's an endless process of constantly talking with people and even in a school, like you get to have the end of a school year, like you have the, you do the reporting and you have your graduations and there's something all packaged and ready and that was school year 2023 or whatever.
In here, it just goes on and on and on. It doesn't ever seem to be an end to it.
MAK
And everyone says, ‘oh, the holidays are coming. It'll be really quiet’. And it's like, um, no, it's not even quiet when the schools are shut.
It never ends.
Kevin O'Keefe
That's right. It’s working it through when it goes on and on.
MAK
And even when schools are shut, our students still need us. That's the reality of it, right?
Kevin O'Keefe
That's right. Absolutely. And, you know, you know that when you come here.
So it's not like someone forced me under the pain of death to come and do the work. I mean, it was work that was an incredible privilege to do. That is, to be able to work at a system level is like an extraordinary opportunity and you'd be foolish not to take the opportunity when it presents itself.
But it does have its own challenges, which is different from, as I said, being a principal where you've got like you live in a finite world.
You've got your school, you've got your community, you've got your identified group of stakeholders but as I said, it's punctuated by periods during the year when things sort of do come to a close.
MAK
I've got your statement of service here and it's about 15 pages long.
I'm just filing through it now, all the pages. Can you hear them?
And there's almost every school in Western Australia listed here as where you've worked.
Seriously though, this next question is going to be like picking a favourite child. So you need to brace yourself for this. Okay, you ready?
Question number five, what or which is your favourite school?
Kevin O'Keefe
Now that is like, as you say, picking.
MAK
I know, I know. I told you these were going to be tricky.
Kevin O'Keefe
Because I, okay, can I just say the bookend schools?
MAK
The bookend, oh no, come on. Okay, no, I'll allow that. That is one answer but you need to give me some more detail about the bookend schools.
Kevin O'Keefe
So the one bookend was the school I started at, Margaret River High School, it was only a year 10 school, but I have such fond memories. And still, when I go back, sometimes bump into those students.
My first head of department has become a lifelong friend. We played cricket, football, golf together and still, and I work with him some years later as well. And so it's where I sort of, I actually think I learned how to teach there.
The other one, of course, the other bookend school is the Ngaanyatjarra Lands School, which was just an absolute privilege to have the opportunity to work there thereafter being, I think, a significant player when I was an executive director in designing the one school structure of the Ngaanyatjarra Lands School back in between 2001 and 2004, and then have the unique and privileged opportunity to go and be principal there of this multi-campus school.
The gift of the culture of those people, the extraordinary people they were at, the quality of the teachers we had in very challenging circumstances was something I think that everyone should have the opportunity of having, and certainly my wife and I felt absolutely privileged to have had four years working there from 2013 to 16.
MAK
You have a unique heart connection with that school, don't you?
Kevin O'Keefe
Absolutely, yeah.
Once you go there, and I think it happens with every teacher, like the red dust just gets in your blood really and you never let it go.
MAK
Next question is equally as difficult. Who has been in your 53 years here, and you would have met a lot of people in that time. Who has been your favourite person?
Now, a smart person would say that the Director-General is your favourite person.
However, we need to leave the Director-General aside and look at all the people over this time and I can see your eyes flashing here.
Who has been your favourite person?
Kevin O'Keefe
Look, I mean, it's almost embarrassing to name someone as well, but look, I have incredible sense of admiration for Peter Hamilton.
He was at uni when I was there. We bumped into each other doing pieces of work for over like 40-odd years.
But I think his capacity to take really profound issues, issues complicated issues and talk about them in the simplest lay person's term I think has actually helped shape the department throughout my time here like he's had and I think he's just a remarkable person, I mean I think he's a wonderful human being as well. I've been through, some aspects of his life with him when like we're probably amongst the darkest times for him in his life.
And I find his profound sense of goodness and intelligence absolutely awe-inspiring.
Now I've cut, left out about 17,000 people at least.
MAK
Well, there's only one other person that I have heard is amongst your list of top favourite people, because I believe that you met this person on the job.
That's what I've been told. Her name's Rosie.
She's turned out to be one of your favourite people, hasn't she?
Kevin O'Keefe
So you mean I actually forgot the real one?
MAK
No, I didn't know. I wasn't going to presume how you're going to answer that question, but she probably deserves a commendation or special mention.
We're talking about Kevin's wife here.
Kevin O'Keefe
You probably should have asked about who is the most long-suffering person and certainly she has been dragged to all of the places that you referred to, including out the Western Desert.
And I found her commitment out there because that was, for me, was like my dream, something I really wanted to do. But like Rosie hadn't been out there and, well, we had travelled as tourists.
But for her to do that, like when she actually had had some significant health problems of hers, like I am incredibly indebted to her for doing that, as well as basically keeping the home fires burning.
I mean, basically, if you asked any of those daughters I referred to about who holds the family together and there's no doubt about who does that, she does.
MAK
How long have you been married?
Kevin O'Keefe
51 years.
MAK
Fifty-one years. And so you met at what school?
Kevin O'Keefe
At Margaret River.
So that's the other reason why that was such a remarkable school. That's where I met her, yes.
MAK
Oh, Kevin. Absolutely.
Kevin O'Keefe
51 years ago. So I don't know whether she got a medallion for that, but she probably should have done.
MAK
For meeting you and marrying you?
Kevin O'Keefe
For marrying me and putting up with me for 51 years.
I hope she doesn't get to hear this podcast.
MAK
Of course she'll hear it. I'm leaving the room immediately and sending it to her. What do you mean?
Now, if you looked back over the 53 years, what would you do differently?
Kevin O'Keefe
Well, I'd still be a teacher again, I think. I mean, I haven't in all of the years that I've been a teacher, you know, like had my faith in believing in the job really questioned.
It does bother me somewhat. The pressures that I hear teachers are under now, and I absolutely accept what they say, but my colleagues who are still doing it are basically saying it's just tougher now, it's more complicated and complex now.
I actually, in my days of entitlement, thought that I'd probably get to be a secondary principal by the time I was 40. As it happened, I got there when I was 50. But actually, that 10 years of my life was just the most extraordinary time when I had opportunities to do things that I had never dreamed possible.
And so what I've learned, I guess, is every disappointment is just a new door opening.
And so I have no misgivings at all about that. I wouldn't wish to change whatever I've done in any way. I've had an immense amount of satisfaction in everything I've done, and it just seems like it's not something I ever created myself. It was just a series of open doors where I just happened to be in the right place at the right time.
MAK
You're like a hero to us, Kevin, but who is a hero to you?
Kevin O'Keefe
Oh, my goodness.
I mean, I attempted to say the DG, but that sounds so sucky.
MAK
You can say that now because you didn't say she was your favourite person.
Kevin O'Keefe
There is something about her that really impresses me.
Like I've always sort of felt like there's something special in being a teacher and serving people, but she has brought in a much more explicit way than I really ever thought, this notion of public service.
I think it's a really, really profound notion.
And, you know, I'd like to think over 50 odd years, that's sort of what I've been doing, but I've never quite thought of it in that way.
So I think she certainly is. I've been fortunate to have, to work with mainly female colleagues and they include not just my wife who was working in the lands, but like I remember when I was a head of department, there was a gorgeous lady there called Judy Pope who was an older lady working in the department who had such an unbelievable sense of goodwill and patience and a sense of composure under pressure that I thought was just absolutely amazing.
And so in a way, I suppose I'd have a series of different answers depending on what are the qualities that I value and from whom did you get them, you know.
That would probably be the way I would respond.
MAK
I'll allow that.
Kevin O'Keefe
I know there's a fair bit of cheating there. There was a little bit of cheating there. But given the nature of the question, I'm going to allow that. Just this once, Kevin.
We're almost there. Yeah. Number 9, what is your legacy? What will you leave behind, do you think?
Kevin O'Keefe
It's a good question.
On the way to work this morning, I was listening to a radio interview that said there was a McKinnon Prize for courageous politicians, and I think Bridget Archer and the gentleman who is in the upper house from the ACT, the rugby player who's become Senator Pocock, David Pocock.
And they just said, you know, like, well done, congratulations, that's great.
And I, like, when I reflected on it, the thing that really struck me about them was not just, I think, their commitment to public service, but actually that they stood for something, that they actually stand for something, that I'd like to think if there was a legacy, that there was a legacy of consistently being passionate about not just education, but public education.
Public is the place.
Like for me, it's been important. I feel like, I feel a strange sort of odd pride in a way in, I don't know how many people have done this, who've spent over 10 years on the department's corporate executive, but also over 10 years as a state executive member of the teachers union.
And so I sort of feel really strongly about public education.
I feel really strongly as an Aboriginal person who's had the benefits of an education and the way in which it's changed my life.
And I'd like to think that the legacy, if there is one, in the system is that we are increasingly getting better at providing a high-quality education to Aboriginal kids, to reaching out not just to their kids, to their families, and embracing them so that they can, in fact, share the benefits that I've had, really.
Because, in a way, it is right. We had a previous minister who used to say education was a ticket to a future life, and he was right. So I'd like that, I'd like to think that when people think of me, I stood for something and that it was notions of equity and, you know, like the opportunity for Aboriginal people to have, like, a meaningful place in this country.
I'd like to think that they are the things I, is my legacy.
MAK
Now we're almost there. Question number 10. Kevin's, like, wiping his brow, giving a sigh of relief.
If I could grant you one wish and only one wish, wish what would that be?
Kevin O'Keefe
I'd like to have many many wishes.
MAK
I know like the never-ending packet of Tim Tams right?
Kevin O'Keefe
Well I suppose I'd like you know following on from what I just said to know that there are going to be a host of Aboriginal students who will come in and have the sort of the life that I've had you know a career in the education department which I think's just been extraordinary.
I feel really, to have had a gift that's just kept on giving really and so I think if that there's one that I just like to see that there's more people because there's, I'm just, I suppose the one regret if there's one is that there's just not enough other Aboriginal people at senior levels in the department and you know I'm so I'm feeling really, you know, like people like Paul Bridge to have him come and take on some of the work where Paul is exactly the same. He basically won all of his positions in the mainstream, in senior positions in the department, and he's done it by himself and I'd like to see a whole lot more people in that space.
MAK
And so maybe that's part of your wish as well, that there are many that follow in your footsteps.
Kevin O'Keefe
Absolutely, yeah.
MAK
Now, before we wrap up, I've got something here, which I believe you have never received in your 53 years at the department.
I did a bit of research to confirm that was the case. You know, I like to look into things. and I believe that you've never received a Making a Difference Award.
Kevin O'Keefe
No, I don't think I've ever given myself one.
MAK
You'd remember it, surely.
I'm giving you a Making a Difference Award and it's for being our guiding light. You always provide a safe, non-judgmental place to seek advice and your open heart, kind nature and deep care for your fellow colleagues is deeply appreciated.
You are a Department of Education treasure.
That's for you to take with you. I know that you will hold that close to you.
Kevin O'Keefe
Oh, signed by the boss. Well, thank you very much. Can you broaden the door so I can get out?
I don't think I'll, because I need to take my head with me.
MAK
But seriously, just on a personal note, my thanks to you.
I haven't been here long, but from the moment that I walked through that door, I sort of felt we had a connection.
It may be because we share the same surname, bar an F and an apostrophe and an O for those listening. My surname is actually Keefe and Kevin is an O'Keefe. So we kind of had an affinity right from the start there.
But more than that, it's about your care, your concern, your support from the moment that I stepped in here into the leadership team.
You've taught me so much, not just about Aboriginal teaching and learning.
But you've taught me so much about what it means to be a gold standard human being and what it means to be a gold standard leader in education.
So you have been probably unbeknownst to you, such a mentor to me, and I feel a great sense of loss that I won't get to enjoy that relationship.
But there are more important things here, and that is your wife seeing you and your daughters seeing you and enjoying you and the many wonderful adventures that you have in front of you in your retirement.
I'm hoping that we can lure you back and that they all get sick of you and tell you to go back and do something with your time.
I don't know that that will happen, but sincerely, from all of us, nobody has earned retirement more than you, Kevin, and I hope it is everything that you've dreamt of and more.
Kevin O'Keefe
Thanks, MAK. It's been a joy working with you too, I must say I've absolutely enjoyed every moment of it.
And that's, I guess, if there is a regret, that that community of people that I've had the opportunity to work with over the last 50 odd years has been very special to me.
They're not just workmates, they're sort of friends and colleagues as well. And so it's been a privilege. So thank you very much for those kind words.
As I said, I'm probably going to struggle to get my head out the door, but thank you. You are good for the soul.
MAK
Well, we're always here for you, Kevin. So, you know, whenever you want, the door is open.
Kevin O'Keefe
Okay, thank you.
MAK
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This podcast was recorded on Whadjuk Noongar land.
We acknowledge the traditional custodians and pay respect to their elders, past, present and future.