In this episode
MAK with Jim Bell.
To celebrate World Teachers’ Day (25 October), DG Bell shares his favourite memories and moments during from a 35-year career in education. He chats about his favourite school, highlighting the hard work that education staff do every day, and the work he’s been involved in to help support teachers and students across WA.
About Director General Jim Bell
Starting out as a teacher at Orelia Primary School, Jim Bell has worked in 9 different schools in roles such as a teacher, deputy principal and principal before working at the Department of Education’s central office as the Deputy Director General of Student Achievement.
Jim is dedicated to supporting and equipping teachers with the best resources to empower their teaching and positively impact their students.
Transcript
MAK
A warm welcome. I'm Marie-Anne Keefe, but please call me MAK.
James Stuart Bell started service with the Department of Education on the 6th of February 1989. This was on a 0.5 FTE as a teacher at Orelia Primary School, straight out of Teachers College. He has taught at 9 different schools.
Have you ever counted them?
Jim Bell
No. I'll take your word for it.
MAK
You’ll take my word for it.
He's taken on roles as diverse as the Director of Public School Review through to the Deputy Director of Student Achievement.
Jim Bell
Deputy Director General.
MAK
Oh, pardon.
Sorry, Deputy Director General of Student Achievement and is currently, I won't get this wrong, the Director General of Education. One gets the feeling that in his 35 years here, there's not a lot that Jim hasn't seen or done, which is what makes him the perfect person to share his top 10 to commemorate World Teachers' Day.
So welcome, Jim, or should I say welcome, DG?
Jim Bell
No, welcome Jim sits far more comfortably than welcome DG.
MAK
Well, that's my first question. How is your new title sitting?
Jim Bell
Well, to be honest, there's a weight with this and you don't feel the weight until you actually sit in the chair and you feel the weight.
And I was only chatting to some people the other day who've said, we were talking about this and they said, ‘yeah, but you've acted before’ and I have. So Lisa's been on leave or she's doing over East for something.
So I've sat in the chair, but she's always been coming back. Well, there's no Lisa coming back, it just sits with me.
MAK
So there's nowhere to hide.
Jim Bell
There's nowhere to hide. And I was chatting to a fairly senior person in the public sector recently about that. And they said to me, ‘that weight never goes, the weight is always part of the role and it's just something that you get used to’.
MAK
So it's one thing, Jim, to talk about being the DG and to anticipate being the DG and to fill in for the DG. But it's another thing when you rock up on your first day as the DG, things suddenly start to get very real.
Jim Bell
They get very real and they get very real very quickly and I think, if there's principals listening they could relate to this, because whether you're a first-time principal or you've been a principal for a while, when you go into your office, it's your first day, it's your school, there's a whole staff, there's a whole community. Even if you've got a small school, you'll have a group of kids and a group of staff and a group of parents that look to you. And there is no, you can turn around, but there's nobody there. It's just you. So I think people can relate to the weight and I've had that a few times in my career in different roles.
This is absolutely one of those times where you feel that weight and it won't go. However, having said that, I sit in amongst a team, and you're one of them, MAK, of brilliant people. And to be honest, the role of a DG is it's a team sport. And so I look around the people that we work with and some of the challenges that we come up against, and you just lean on that group of people so often.
So it is a role that does have a burden or a weight, I don't mean that in a negative way, but there's a responsibility that comes with this role, but it's one that's shared with some really good people.
MAK
And it's a privilege from your humble beginnings at little old Orelia Primary School to being the Director General and sitting in that chair. Did you ever imagine, could you ever have imagined back then that this is where you would land?
Jim Bell
Never contemplated it for one second.
Not for one second.
MAK
And would you ever have wanted it? Because looking back at that, the young man that stepped up to be a teacher, would you ever have desired to be the Director General?
Jim Bell
Never. No, never. Never. And I must admit, my whole career has been, I mean I've always applied for jobs that I haven't necessarily wanted or yearned for different roles. So when I first became a deputy, I sort of had to be talked into it.
So I was in a large school, they were back in the days, back in the days when you had to have a male and a female deputy. These were the old days.
MAK
Right. You had to have one of each sex?
Jim Bell
You had to have one of each gender.
MAK
Really?
Jim Bell
Yeah, you did. I don't know. That was just the way of the world.
MAK
That was equality, was it?
Jim Bell
It was apparently, yeah.
MAK
Fascinating.
Jim Bell
Yeah and so a male deputy job came up and I didn't even think about it. I was one of the staff members, it was a big staff. We had 870 kids in the school and 100 staff or what have you. And to be honest, I was one of the younger ones. But my line manager, as part of our conversation, said, ‘you should go for this. You throw your hat in the ring’.
So I did. Two of us applied for it. The other chap was my best mate. We travelled to work together. Wow. And he was far more experienced than me.
MAK
And did he really want the job?
Jim Bell
Well, I think he, actually as it turned out, he was ambivalent really.
And I really credit the principal at the time was a chap called Frank Sontag. He had a really hard decision to make because I put a, as it turned out, a pretty good application in.
MAK
Oh, clearly.
Jim Bell
My mate, he just, you know.
MAK
Slapped it together.
Jim Bell
Slapped something together. Hope for the best, sort of. He had been a deputy before anyway.
So the principal went, you know what? He assessed it on merit and said, actually, ‘Jim's going to get the job’.
So that was my first foray into it.
MAK
Were the car rides a bit awkward after that?
Jim Bell
No, we're great. We're still great mates now. Yeah.
MAK
Well, what's he said to you? He obviously knows that you're the new Director General. He'd be pretty chuffed for you about that, I'm sure.
Jim Bell
He's a thoroughly terrific man. Graham Dixon's his name, he still teaches in Mandurah. Wonderful human being.
He was the first person to congratulate me.
So, yeah, he's been a mate all the way through and always will be.
MAK
Did he say, ‘you've come a long way, my friend, from those car rides? You've come a long way?’
Jim Bell
He doesn't get that sort of nostalgic, but he's a great mate.
MAK
So out of all the roles you've had, and you've talked about a few of those, which one has been your favourite?
Jim Bell
I really, being a principal of a school is a great role. And we even hear from principals now, it's a really odd thing, they'll say it's a really high demand role. There can be stress, there can be challenges, all of those things. But it's also the best job they've ever done.
So being a principal, I did that for 17 years. That was a great role.
The area of School Review, I think, was a fantastic role. I've had the opportunity to work in regions and so you can support schools from a regional point of view.
And of course, being part of the CorpEx in the role of Deputy DG Student Achievement, that's our chance to really strengthen our support for schools.
So when you look at things like our Quality Teacher Strategy, our Student Wellbeing Strategy, all of those really list substantial bodies of work, that's all designed to hopefully make the role of schools a bit easier and hopefully make the job of teachers a bit easier.
MAK
In my view, and I know my view is shared by so many, you are a natural leader.
There's something in your DNA. Do you see that?
Jim Bell
I don't, but I've always just had the view.
So I come back to your question about, is that something you yearned for? I haven't. And to be honest, I don't think you want a DG who does want to climb over to people to get there.
That's not who you want.
MAK
No, I don't see that ambition in you at all. Not at all.
But the ambition is different to being a natural leader.
Jim Bell
Absolutely. And I think all of our philosophy should be just do the job in front of you and do it well.
And if I could give anyone advice, if you do want to go places in your career, just live by that. You'll all have a job to do, whether it's a teacher, a deputy, a principal, it doesn't matter what it is. Just do that job well, and that'll take you places.
MAK
Now, question number 2. See, we're flying through them.
Jim Bell
I thought we had 3 or 4 by now.
MAK
No, you're only up to number two. Out of all the schools you have worked in, which one do you have the fondest memories of?
Jim Bell
That's a really tough question.
MAK
Oh, come on, Jim. You told me earlier that this would be easy.
Jim Bell
You know, when I go back over the schools, particularly the schools I've been principal in, I've had the real privilege of opening 3 new schools.
MAK
Wow.
Jim Bell
So Port Hedland Primary School opened that nearly 30 years ago. That goes back to your old comment earlier.
MAK
Yes, I didn't say that.
Jim Bell
But true.
MAK
I might have intimated perhaps.
Jim Bell
That's true.
Ocean Road Primary School in Dawesville, fantastic. And the last school, I was in Lakelands Primary School in Mandurah.
All new schools, got to open, establish all of them.
MAK
That's pretty special.
Jim Bell
Oh, opening a new school is a bucket list item for principals. To do 3, it's an absolute privilege.
And all of those, I've got great relationships, great friends.
I was also the principal of Success Primary School, which is what we call an endorsed program school. So one principal, ed support students, mainstream students.
MAK
But the rules are here, Jim.
Jim Bell
I will. I'll tell you one. I've got one.
MAK
You've got one.
Jim Bell
I've got one. I'll tell you why.
So Success was a wonderful school, amazing people, I learned so much from the people around me at Success because they were so expert at what they do, particularly in the space of disability and support for kids. But the very first school I was a principal, all of those were big schools, 800 kids, nearly 100 staff, 160 at Success, big schools. The first school I was a principal of was Yuna Primary School.
Now Yuna Primary School. It was a little school, 70 kilometres out of Geraldton. I had 22 kids in the school.
MAK
The whole school?
Jim Bell
The whole school. I taught 11. The other teacher, Jan Easthoff, taught 11.
MAK
You taught half the school.
Jim Bell
I taught half the school. And the amazing thing about that school, when we talk about what makes education work, it's actually the connection between school and community.
Twenty-two kids, 11 families. I had at every P&C meeting 11 people turned up.
MAK
Every parent.
Jim Bell
Every family was represented, every family represented at the whole school.
Assembly, every family represented. But here's the thing, we would do an end-of-year concert.
So 22 kids, 11 families. We had a hall at Una, there's not much at Una. There's a big wheat silo, a couple of houses and a hall.
So how many people do you think were in the hall? Twenty-two kids, but take the kids aside because they were doing the plays and like an assembly concert.
MAK
So they've got two parents. So 22, 44.
Jim Bell
No, 11 families so 22 parents.
MAK
Yeah, 22 parents and a couple of grandparents.
MAK
Yeah, grandparents.
Jim Bell
Forty max.
MAK
Yeah, some hanger-ons maybe as well.
Jim Bell
Yeah. Well, I was there for 2 years, at least 150 people in that hall.
MAK
Who were these people?
Jim Bell
The whole community.
MAK
The person that ran the deli down the road, roadhouse-
Jim Bell
Whoever's connected to Yuna, they all came, whether they were former students, current students, of course. But if you were in Yuna, you went to that end of year concert. It was just an amazing sense of community.
And the other thing was the fundraising for us at Yuna, they're all wheat farmers. As the school, we were a wheat farmer.
So what that meant was they created an account for us at CBH where they would deposit their wheat. The farmers would come in, whether you're connected to the school or not, they'd dump their wheat, they'd say, put a tonne on the school's account.
MAK
Wow.
Jim Bell
And so at the end of the year, or through the year, we would get cheques from CBH.
MAK
Wow.
Jim Bell
Because we were a wheat grower. We never stepped foot on a grain of sand, we were in the school all the time.
So Yuna's a really special place because it's the blueprint of school and community working together.
It's a wonderful, wonderful story.
MAK
Because that school was clearly the heart of the community and all our schools.
Jim Bell
Schools are. Schools are the hub of community. And that was one that held the community long after people had left the school and even if they didn't have kids in the school, they were all connected to the school.
MAK
How many would be at Yuna today? Do you know?
Jim Bell
So I spoke to the Yuna people about 2 weeks ago because I was in Geraldton with the Minister. And I told them that story, and the principal of Yuna, who I had on staff years ago, came up to me afterwards and said they still turn up for the end of year concert.
MAK
And how many did he say?
Jim Bell
Well, there's only 9 kids in the school.
MAK
Nine now.
Jim Bell
Nine, which is a real, you know, it's tough because what happens in those communities is the farms get bigger, but the population gets smaller.
They would still get 100 people.
MAK
Wow.
Jim Bell
The whole community support. That's just an incredible model of how schools work well with their communities.
MAK
We're going to have to make sure this podcast makes its way up to Geraldton.
Jim Bell
I hope you do.
MAK
I'm making you a promise, Director General.
Jim Bell
Please do.
MAK
I'm going to take that upon myself as an action from this podcast.
Now, this-
Jim Bell
Is this only question 3?
MAK
This is only question 3.
Jim Bell
We’ll be here all night.
MAK
Come on, this looks like an easy question, but it's really not.
Who was the person who has been the kindest to you during your teaching journey?
Jim Bell
The kindest? There isn't a person, I will hone in on a person, because I think for anyone, you need your networks and your backers. You need people in your camp.
Through my career, I've been really blessed to have some amazing mentors. Like more recently Lisa Rodgers, I mean, to have someone like Lisa Rodgers as someone you can go to any time of the day and say, ‘hey, what do you think?’
MAK
Blessed.
Jim Bell
Amazing. Sharon O'Neill, the previous DG.
When I was the principal of Yuna, Sharon was the deputy in Carnarvon.
MAK
Oh, wow.
Jim Bell
So I got to know Sharon.
MAK
And she's now obviously the public sector commissioner.
Jim Bell
Public sector commissioner. She's everyone's boss, basically, probably except the Premier’s.
MAK
Yes.
Jim Bell
A chap called Peter Hamilton, who people may or may not know, quite genius in his own ability to strategise, to message in incredible support for us.
You know through my whole career, there's been principals and colleagues that have been there.
Probably the greatest backstop in my life is my wife.
MAK
Oh, Kerry.
Jim Bell
Kerry. And so you know, we've sort of done lots of things together. She's followed me around as I've gone to Yuna and Port Hedland and different parts of the world. And of course, we've just embraced the communities we're in. We've raised our kids there. But if you look at Backstop and people that have got you there, it'd have to be my wife.
MAK
That is a great answer, DG. That is a great answer, very much from the heart. And yes you're right, could you have done all these things, would you be here now sitting opposite me today without Kerry?
Jim Bell
Oh, not a chance.
MAK
Probably not.
Jim Bell
Not a chance, no. I'd hate to think where I would be actually, but I wouldn't be sitting here that’s for sure.
MAK
Well, that's a subject for another podcast, I think.
What's the toughest thing you've ever had to do in these 35 years, the toughest thing?
Jim Bell
Oh, there's lots of tough things.
Whether it's, you know giving people bad news about jobs or, you know having to have those sort of hard conversations about performance or all of those sorts of things that people do all the time.
But I think with all of those, they're just conversations that have to be done from a compassionate point of view because, you know, hard conversations are actually constructive conversations with a purpose.
And I think they, you know anyone who likes to do the hard conversations isn't a good person. They will challenge you. But the reason you do it is for another person's benefit.
And so I think how we do that and how we sort of navigate through those is really important. But there's lots of tough things that we do and I think whatever it is, whatever shape that challenge comes in, do it for the right reason and with compassion.
MAK
It's actually your superpower.
Jim Bell
You think?
MAK
I know.
Jim Bell
Oh thank you I wouldn't have thought that.
MAK
What's the easiest thing you've ever had to do?
Jim Bell
I don't know, there's a very hard question. That's probably the hard question, that's the one I needed some preparation for.
MAK
Really?
Jim Bell
Well, I don't know. I'd have to think about it.
I mean, it's not so much easy, there's a lot of joy in this job.
I think, you know, we're about to talk to our school psychologist. One of the things I'll remind them, and I say this to people all the time, whatever your work, you can get sort of caught up in the hurly-burly of whatever the work is.
In our job we have to remind ourselves that we actually can change people's lives. This is a job where you can actually change the life trajectory of a kid.
I don't know if I did that, but to have someone's back to support them and just believe in people to go, ‘you know what, you can actually do this’. You don't get that in every job.
And for 5 years I left the department and went and worked in industry, sort of heavy industry and went and worked for a group called Veolia, which was a great opportunity. They work in the waste industry, that's one of the things they do is waste. And I often say to people, ‘waste management’s really important but it doesn't change people's life trajectory, but what we do, whether you're a teacher or a psych, you change their trajectory’.
MAK
If you had the power to change one thing, talking about change, what would that be?
Jim Bell
I think for us to make the biggest difference to kids, it's actually about the quality of teaching.
I'm going to go back to my craft now, and my craft is teaching.
Like whenever people ask me what I do, I don't tell them the badge. I say I'm a teacher, that my trade is a teacher. I'm a teacher that's done different things, a principal or school review or whatever, or director general. I'm a teacher.
And so I think if we are to make the biggest difference to kids, it's about what happens in classrooms and so the better we can support teachers, if we can make every teacher a bit better, we're going to make a difference to kids.
That's the sort of impact point. Not so much we do really good work in the background, but actually if our work doesn't help a teacher do their work better, then we're probably not playing in the right space.
MAK
What was the thing, and you're ripping through these now, we're at question number 8.
Jim Bell
Oh really?
MAK
So you can start breathing a sigh of relief. What was the one thing that was so good that you'd want to do it all over again?
Jim Bell
I needed some prep time for those questions.
MAK
No, dig deep. I know you've got this.
Jim Bell
Well, I might've said it before, but the Quality Teaching Strategy is a really proud moment.
For a long time, I don't know that you want to do it again because it's quite a journey, but for a long time as a department, we never had the stake in the ground to go ‘this is what we stand for in regards to good teaching’. We had lots of schools that in their own, and they did a brilliant job, would develop their own, they'd often call it the such and such way, whatever the name of the school is, the Yuna way, the Port Hedland way and that was their agreed approach to teaching. But they all went off separately and did their own research, did a fantastic job, but the system didn't say, ‘actually, this is the system way’.
And so the Quality Teaching Strategy was a chance to go, ‘this is what the research says are the practices that have the greatest impact on kids’.
So we brought those together in what we call the Teach for Impact tool, that's part of the quality teaching strategy, and that's had a really profound effect on a number of levels.
One is it's our department position, but it adds steel to the arm of schools to go ‘actually, when it comes to good practice, this is what our employer stands for in the space of teaching’.
It's a really important strategy.
Equally with that is our Student Wellbeing Strategy, because if we've got kids that don't feel connected and supported and someone hasn't got their back, then we'll struggle to teach them.
MAK
Does that feel like part of your legacy here?
Jim Bell
In a way, it does. I mean, I can't take the credit for it there's so many people that...
MAK
It's a team sport.
Jim Bell
It's a team sport.
MAK
You said that before.
Jim Bell
Absolutely.
MAK
But it's very close to your heart.
Jim Bell
It really is. And I was only chatting to my wife the other day about, because I'll retire at some point, and when I look back, those bodies of work will be enduring. They'll have it and they'll have an impact in classrooms and that's where it has to happen.
MAK
For generations to come.
Jim Bell
Well, hopefully, yeah. Hopefully.
MAK
What is it that you'll miss the most? The DG, the former DG, Lisa Rodgers. I have to get used to doing, saying that.
Jim Bell
It's hard to get used to, isn't it?
MAK
It's very hard, DG, it is.
She said there was a lot of grief when it came to her leaving, that she was really sad to leave everything behind.
Jim Bell
Absolutely.
MAK
This, you know, teaching isn't a career, it's actually a calling.
Jim Bell
It's a calling, it absolutely is, yeah.
MAK
What is it that you'll miss the most?
Jim Bell
That's a really easy one to answer, and it's the people. It's always the people. And that grieving when Lisa left, and not even when she left, when she announced that she's leaving, people grieve because that, you know, she was such a pivotal part of the system and almost like that anchor point to all that we do. But when you look at your career, it's the people.
And so when you, and people have often said, you know, when I retire, how will you feel? I said, well, sometimes the work, you know, we get caught up in the sorts of work that we do, MAK, and, you know, that's neither here nor there. It's the people that you do that work with. So I look at you, I look at the people we sit in that room with, I look at the principals in schools and teachers in schools, the people who work in our regions and Statewide and Central office.
They're the people that you, not go into battle with, but when we tackle issues we tackle it collectively. And so I think you said at the start, it's a team sport. So you miss the team because you really get connected to the team and the team's your survival tactic. And so stepping away from jobs is easy, stepping away from people is really hard.
Jim Bell
Well, you will be stepping away because you are only, you're only warming the seat.
Jim Bell
That's right.
MAK
You did try and sneak off into retirement, but before you could step a foot out the door, we dragged you back in.
Jim Bell
That's right.
MAK
To take care of us all until our new DG arrives.
What does this next chapter look like? What does retirement look like for you? What are you most excited about?
Jim Bell
Well I think when, like everyone, your job can become all consuming. And so often in that space, there's something has to give and often what gives is family. And so, you know, my wife's retired now for actually almost 3 years to the day. I've said to others, she's got plans to travel and I think she'll enact those plans, whether I'm with her or not. So it's probably best I am with her.
So we've got some plans to do travel, you know, particularly around Australia and maybe do some overseas stuff, but I'd really like to stay connected to education in some way.
MAK
You can't get away from us that easily.
Jim Bell
No, and I don't want to either.
Well, it's just being connected to the team. And so I'd love to stay in gate in some way, but probably on my own terms.
And so, you know, you live the same life. It's quite, it's just unrelenting. There's a lot that goes on all the time, it's just a matter of what's next.
And so the chance to balance that up, I think, will be good.
The other thing, of course, is people may not know, but I travel. And so there's a living in Mandurah to travel up and down every day.
MAK
I don't know how you've done that because effectively 4 hours of your day, thereabouts, depending on the traffic, is spent in a car.
Jim Bell
Car or train. Yeah, and they're the same. The train's not any quicker, I can just work on the train.
MAK
Yeah, but you're not going to miss that.
Jim Bell
Not one iota. I've done that for 9 years.
MAK
I don't know how you've done it, Jim.
Jim Bell
That's part of the price that you pay. Yeah, and to be honest, that takes it out of you.
MAK
Of course it does.
Jim Bell
I mean, you can use that time constructively but you're travelling. And so, to do that for 9 years, you get to a point where you go, I think that might be enough.
MAK
Well, we're all very excited for you and we are expecting you back, so don't disappoint us.
It's been 35 years. Out of that whole time, I've only spent a tiny fraction with you, 15 months in fact.
What people don't know is that you were on my interview panel when I applied for this job and I don't know if you remember the question I asked you.
So on my interview panel, there were 2 very seminal people, 2 people who were the reason why I took this job.
One was Lisa Rodgers and the second was you. And during that interview, I asked you, ‘do you think, Jim, there might be an opportunity for mentoring in this role?’ And you went, ‘oh, absolutely, definitely’. And I said, ‘well, what might that look like?’ And I don't know if you remember your answer, but your answer was, ‘well, anything you want it to look like’. Very enthusiastically.
Well, Jim, what I wanted it to look like, I wanted it to be you playing that role for me. And even though it's been a really short time that we've worked together.
What you've demonstrated in the time that I've worked with you is that you have shown me what emotionally intelligent, empowering, uplifting leadership truly looks like.
You invest in everybody around you, which inspires reciprocity. You are a statesman and a gentleman of the first order and in the short time that I've worked with you, you've just left an indelible mark on my career.
I aspire to bring to my work the same integrity and decency that you've demonstrated. You're actually a replaceable, Jim, and I want to thank you for everything.
Jim Bell
Thank you, MAK.
It is so humbling to hear that. That's really moving, and it's difficult to respond. That's, as I say, very humbling to hear. So thank you so much for that.
Can I say though, that mentoring, and I think I've said before, has been absolutely two way. And if I'm totally honest, I feel like I've dropped the ball a bit because we probably, that mentoring probably could have been more frequent.
MAK
Well, it could have been longer, Jim. It could have been longer. That's all I can say about it. It could have been longer than 15 months.
Jim Bell
But thank you so much. That is so kind of you to say. It's really very humbling to hear that. Thank you.
MAK
It's all true and look, we wish you every success and joy for your retirement. And I just wanted to say don't spend too long out there before circling back around to us.
Jim Bell
No, well, invite me back. I want to stay connected.
MAK
You've got an open invitation because you're part of the family.
Jim Bell
Thank you. Thank you.
MAK
This podcast has been recorded on Whadjuk Noongar land. We pay respect to the traditional owners and to elders past, present and future.
Notes
You can celebrate World Teachers' Day using the celebration kit resources.
Find out more about World Teachers' Day here.