Transcript
Fiona Bartholomaeus
Welcome, you’re listening to Between our pages, a Premier’s Reading Challenge WA podcast.
My name is Fiona Bartholomaeus and together we’ll be diving into the wonderful world of books and reading right here in WA.
Today we're chatting with world-renowned Aboriginal illustrator and author Brenton E McKenna about his book Hairy Holes.
Let's go.
Hairy Holes is a fun outback adventure following Begley and Redley Hole, 2 hairy hole people living ordinary lives in the bush, until they cross paths with a local tourist.
With the promise of friendship helping them find their parents, Joplin the tourist turns their lives upside down.
It's the latest book from one of the world's most coveted First Nations graphic novelist, Brenton E. McKenna.
Brenton, thank you so much for joining me.
Brenton E. McKenna
Thank you for having me on board, Miss Fiona.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
On your website, you have that a graphic novelist is part illustrator, part wordsmith, part comic artist, and part historian. It's interesting to see it broken down like that. Why do you say those aspects make up a graphic novelist?
Brenton E. McKenna
It's a mix of a lot of different things for a graphic novelist, but primarily I think the easiest one is being the author and the illustrator team within yourself. I think, and like, yeah, we can come at it from a lot of different angles. I was really, I guess, an illustrator first. Like I was a struggling reader at school to the point where I actually couldn't read for a long time and then kind of through the power of comic books, you know, just reading the pictures and then slowly picking up words.
Yeah, I think definitely illustrator first. I've been, you know, lucky enough to write a lot of things and be recognized as an author as well.
Components even from graphic design and then you know those finishing touches as I kind of grew as a storyteller I found myself learning things from many different other professions as well.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
And it's really interesting to hear about how graphic novels and comics really helped you with your reading skills.
I feel like sometimes we focus so much on just the general books with all just purely text we forget how much of a benefit graphic novels and comics can be.
Brenton E. McKenna
Yes, yeah, totally agree I feel, I mean I can't speak for everyone but I know growing up in Broome and being Indigenous sort of like Creole and our native Yawuru being more prominent than English, you know, we only really kind of spoke English at school and we watched a lot of English television, I guess.
We only had two channels back then, we only had GWN and ABC.
I mean, we all struggled with it, but I think I struggled the most reading and writing English. But yeah, comics was definitely my way into me writing my own stories.
I remember reading comic book character names first and then Thor and Hulk being the two first names I remember because there were only four letters and nice big bold fonts. And then I think as I got better as a reader, I started reading smaller fonts and longer words.
Yeah, by the time I was 12, I remember reading things on my own and thinking, ah, maybe I can read now. I'm not sure. Yeah.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
And now you've become a world-famous graphic novelist and very beloved writer in Broome, but across WA as well.
Brenton E. McKenna
I hope it's beloved, yeah.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
And your latest book called Hairy Holes, it came out last year. Can you tell us what it's about?
Brenton E. McKenna
Yeah it's actually, growing up in Broome like my most favourite thing in the whole world is listening to ghost stories you know and even before I was into comic books my most favourite thing to do when we went camping, was you know at the end of the day when everyone's for sort of fishing, hunting and done with everything else we'd sit around the fire and just tell ghost stories.
And I guess I was that annoying little kid that always wanted to hear a ghost story you know and I think one of the oldest ghost stories for me growing up was, you know given my culture and everything, was the stories of hairy people I guess and I think more sort of commonly known across Australia’s Yowies I guess, but we have um just like we call them Bunbun here and they had you know sasquatch in North America, Yeti in Himalayans like there's stories about these big hairy giants everywhere. And I remember being really fascinated with them ever since then you know and always wanting to see them. I remember on car trips you know like driving to nearby towns and you know thinking I’d seen something while I was in the car and yeah.
As a kid, just super fascinated with these big humanoids.
And it's kind of strange like, as you grow up, you kind of learn the truth about vampires and ghosts and a lot of it's sort of construed or misinterpretation or something. But something about big, giant, hairy humanoids actually reinforced those truths. I was like, no, no, these people probably actually did exist. You know, they're Australopithecus and Gigantotypicus. You know, like these humanoids are big, massive Latin names.
You know they they're finding more and more evidence that these things were true, so kind of actually empowered that need to tell this story because I was trying to find like, I guess it's an unbiased truth, but there's just a lot of things I'm starting to agree with me and yeah I just think what cool creatures what cool characters, it was just it was hard for me not to do a story about them you know so yeah.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
And I kind of love how it's a meeting of two worlds of the hairy people but also just a tourist. They collide and it's a bit about their mix and how they talk and relate to each other.
Brenton E. McKenna
Yeah, yeah. That was something I kind of wanted to do.
Originally kind of almost wanted to have a character that resembled myself, you know, who was maybe Indigenous and, you know, had some bushcraft and been camping. I wasn't such a stranger to the bush but then I thought, ‘no wouldn't it be better to have someone from the polar extreme?’
Like you've got these creatures who are just, you know, they embody the outback. They're rugged and tough and crazy and wild, and then you've got, you know, this a city slicker basically who's a tech guru and he owns his own social media platform who knows nothing. He's got no business being out there. And I really wanted to draw the extremes out, even in their appearance, you know, that Begley and Redley, you know, they call all humans, and regardless of thing, they call us skinnies simply because we're covered in skin.
And even though it's greyscale, I kind of wanted that contrast between how light Joplin looks versus how grey-washed Redley and Begley look, you know.
So it was just trying to play around with a lot of extremes there, yeah.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
And speaking of the art style, what made you decide to go with that black and white, that greyscale kind of style rather than colour or something different?
Brenton E. McKenna
Yeah, it was just something I think because with my first series, Ubby’s Underdogs, that was fully coloured and it was a big graphic novel series. And even though it's done incredibly well, it was just, and as much as I love that book, it was painstaking you know? There was a lot of times I went into, you know, the character designs, the stories and the colour, even when I had the right colours for the characters, you know, just making sure I captured the right shading and the right lighting of each panel of each shot. And there was sort of just a lot of stress and it was worth it in the end.
But with Hairy Holes, I think both myself and my publisher, we were just really exhausted and both our words that we kind of said to ourselves and to each other at the same time was, ‘let's just have fun’.
Let's just have some fun and do something that's nowhere as epic as Ubby’s but it's just fun to make and the idea of grayscale kind of came up, we originally wanted a bit of colour but then we saw that you know I think there's like a growing trend of a lot of great grayscale graphic novels. So we thought you know let's just try it.
I’ve never really been one for using grayscale, I like using colours especially local colours from where I’ve been brought up in Broome and the Kimberley. No, we tried it and it was actually a really nice refreshing exercise. Like it was just something different and, yeah, I felt like I could have more fun with it.
I think we went greyscale just to experiment, try something different that's sort of very different from Ubby’s Underdogs and stuff that I've done before in the past, yeah.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
And it's really quite impressive because even though it is black and white, it's greyscale, all the characters and all the animals still look quite different and they still stand out from the background, none of them blur into the background. All that shading really helps all the individual people pop out.
Brenton E. McKenna
That was my biggest fear. That was one thing actually that I didn't know, of course, you know, because if you're going to use grayscales and you know, there has to be several tones of grey, otherwise they all look like one big grey blob.
And it's something I've never really dealt with before because I've always used colour. so no, it was fun sort of even learning those tricks.
I kind of assumed that using grayscale would be a little bit simpler and it was simpler in some ways, but it was also it required a lot of sort of creative know-how and even me looking at some of my favourite graphic novels myself that I grew up with like Ghost in the Shell and The Crow.
They're all great. They're all in black and white and just looking at how those creators like Minas Juni from Ghost in the Shell and James O'Barr, how they played with light to sort of make sure nothing got lost in the background, yeah.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
And the art within your story, it also includes traditional Aboriginal drawings alongside that graphic novel style. How important is it to have these two different arts and pull them together into one medium?
Brenton E. McKenna
Yeah, I think it's very important to have, for me as a graphic novelist and a storyteller to combine my two biggest aspects, me being a graphic novelist and a First Nations creator, that yeah, it just made a lot of sense to me. Like, it's something I've done since day one.
I've always tried to sort of use as much as Indigenous content from my own culture to tell those stories because I grew up with a lot of cool stories, you know, and I always saw stories I was told as a kid as comic books, you know, so for me it always went hand in hand but I really feel like presently, you know, it's a really great time to be into graphic novels and a great time to sort of celebrate First Nations culture.
So I think it's, for me, I'm just gelling the two biggest aspects of my life together.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
And for those who pick up your book, what do you hope they take away from it?
Brenton E. McKenna
Really, I just want everyone to have a good laugh. I just want them to have a big smile and a good laugh.
You know, Harry Holes is a great story, very much like Ubby’s Underdogs.
Ubby’s Underdogs is a real adventure, it's one of those stories that it can take you on an action-packed sort of thrill ride without ever leaving your seat. But Harry Hole's is more about just wanting to have fun. I really hope everyone gets a few laughs out of it.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
I read that your stories are a combination of your own childhood experiences, like you were saying before, and your grandmother's stories of Broome. How important is it to include those personal experience and stories?
Brenton E. McKenna
I think it's very vital as a storyteller.
We don't have to, but I found from my own personal experience, like I used to come up with a lot of great stories, but even when I told them or, you know, when I first started writing Ubby’s, I remember bringing it to my publishers and just them saying, ‘there's something missing’. There's just a bit of life. There's just something that's missing out of it. And at the time, I was in quite a bad place, I was in South Australia and just going through some issues there and it wasn't until I moved back to Broome and started having a few little adventures of my own that I could finally find that little bit of zest that they were looking for. And I was able to put that into my stories. And now that's just a key tip that I always do with all my work and I think Hairy Holes, I did it without even thinking. Like I knew that I had to put in those life stories.
So it's just not the typical biographical or anything, but just snippets of things that are a little bit funny, a little bit cheeky, a little bit scary, you know and yeah, just those things that humans are really good at.
You know, like I used to love hearing stories about my grandmother's generation because they were pretty tough and pretty wild and some of the best stories kind of come from that era.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
And it's so beneficial for people being able to read these stories, and even though there may be a fictional version of what happened or just taking inspiration, it's still sharing that culture and that history with such a wide variety of people.
Brenton E. McKenna
Yeah, absolutely. I found that with, you know, my first year of Ubby’s Underdogs, some of the more senior readers who were from that era kind of thinking that they thought Ubby’s was like a documented historical account and it's like, ‘I don't remember this’ and I had to tell them, ‘no, no, this is all fictional’. Or this is just, ‘you know, inspired by the stories you told me’.
And Hairy Holes is kind of the same. You know, like I don't know how many times I've heard that story myself of someone driving in the car down in the middle of the outback or down the Kimberley and they thought they saw something, you know. And that's how I kind of opened up book one with a young fellow, you know, a few years ago thinking he saw something but it actually was something.
You know, a good story is a relatable story and a relatable story has relatable characters. And if kids who have had that happen to them, I think they'll relate with the character at the start of the book, yeah.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
Now you're a very talented graphic novelist, but you've also worked as a cartoonist for The West. Is there a bit of a difference in how you tackle your art for your graphic novels versus the cartoons for the paper?
Brenton E. McKenna
Yeah, there is. It was a bit of a learning curve for me that one because, yeah, the West Australian approached me to do a cartoon strip, which I was honoured to do, you know back in 2020, right over the time of COVID.
And that was great because I originally went to my publishers and said, I said, ‘hey, how do I, you know, cartooning, I've dabbled with it, but now I'm getting paid for it, so I want to make sure I'm doing it properly’. And they basically said, ‘we've got no idea’. Like, it's a whole completely different animal to publishing.
So, no, I went back through all my old notes, my old sketchbooks, my old instructionals on cartooning, and I read everything from square one again and really learned, yeah, that the deadlines are very different. Of course, my art style, I've only altered in sort of in a nutshell basis like less detail more expression is probably the better way to put it. Yeah there's been a lot of things I’ve learned through the cartooning circles and even that storytelling like trying to maximize a story and even like less panels than I would on a comic book page.
I think on the average comic page is like nine grids, this one here I’m trying to tell a pun of a story in four panels at least you know, so it's been a really nice and I’ve learned a lot of things and the things I've learned from cartooning I've actually even implemented in Hairy Holes and vice versa.
Some of the things I've learned from creating graphic novels I've definitely used to help me as a cartoonist for the West Australian.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
I was going to say it must be such a great opportunity for cross-skill upskilling, I guess you would say, using the cartoonist stuff for your graphic novels and vice versa.
Brenton E. McKenna
Yeah, it has been a little bit of that definitely for sure.
Even sort of just finding that happy medium now of how I like telling stories. I think a big thing with me for a long time is that I haven't learnt, didn't know how to really reconcile horror with comedy and folklore with technology and, like, just a lot of the things that I'm finding definitely with this new series, Hairy Holes, and sort of having the trust of my publishers. I think that's the big one.
Without Ubby’s Underdogs, there was so much sort of wandering in the dark and I didn't know about publishing and my publisher didn't really know about graphic novels and we kind of just kept bumping into a lot of little hurdles and, like, the more we did it, the more fine-tuned the machine got. And by the time we were doing Hairy Holes, like, it was really it was a really positive experience because they kind of trusted me to tell the story they said ‘go with it, run with it, we know you, you're good at this’ and just you know ‘bring us back a story and if we don't like it we'll tell you if we do’ and then the other flip side to that was me not taking criticism so personally as I did those many years ago. I think now whenever my publisher says you know there's something they don't like, I know it's because they want the story to be as great as it can be. And I literally wear it on the chin and make the changes. And nine times, nine or 10 times out of 10, they're never really wrong. There's something that, yeah, that can definitely make the story better.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
Now, you're one of the world's leading First Nations graphic novelists. Does that create a bit of pressure for you, having that title?
Brenton E. McKenna
Kind of. It did at the start because when we first did it, I kind of felt like I wasn't the first.
I'd heard of Streetwise Comics and I'd heard of Lynn Onish creating a comic book called Captain Corey, and there'd been a lot of references in the past.
Even, I think, Bishop and Gateway, two X-Men characters in Marvel. And so I kind of had in my head that, no, no, I'm not the first. I might be the first one to do a graphic, but there's definitely Aboriginal characters out there. But then sort of one-by-one learning that, you know, that the two characters actually weren't created by or never had the consultancy of like an Indigenous creator. And even though, yeah, Captain Corey was never published and one by one kind of finding out like, oh, there hasn't actually been a, you know, an author illustrator who was a first nation and hadn't published a first nations graphic novel before. And this is back in 2011 and when we did our research sort of kind of saying I think you're the first one you know and in Australia okay cool and then in amongst a very small handful across the globe, that's when the weight kind of set in.
And yeah it wasn't so much pressure, I just wanted to make sure that if people ever Googled me I had content to show them you know. Like I had something that kind of lived up to the to the title so, this summer there's a lot of great indie First Nations creators you know, you've got a lot of kids getting into graphic novels, even a lot of my peers now doing fantastic, so it's a really really good time to be into comic books and to be into First Nations culture as well.
So I think the hardest thing was saying that I was the only one for a long time, I was the only one, but just recently now we've got a lot of great Indigenous, First Nations creators here in Australia getting out some fantastic comics, yeah.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
So what does this title mean to you?
Brenton E. McKenna
It's a very important title to me.
Definitely being the first because it suggests that I'm not the only one anymore, which was the case for a long time.
You know, I think at one point I was known as the only First Nations graphic novelist in Australia, which I was quite proud of at the start. But as the sort of years went by and still saying I'm still the only one, we haven't found someone else to sort of join the circle. But, no, that's not the case anymore.
I mean, I'd met sort of Indigenous writers and Indigenous illustrators, but no one kind of doing both at the same time, which was the tricky part. And, no, that's not the case anymore.
There's Stick Mob from Alice Springs, who is a young group that I helped mentor as well, along with my mentor. And, yeah, no, it's a title I'm quite proud of. And being the first is important, but I definitely hope I'm not the last and that there's going to be a lot more First Nations creators in the years to come.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
And you dedicate some of your time to creative education workshops with younger people. Can you tell us more about this?
Brenton E. McKenna
Yeah, absolutely. I've been doing workshops, you know, in just about all of our cities, all the way down to even just our local communities here in the Kimberley, which has been really rewarding for me, you know, because kids, they've got great stories, all of them you know.
I find sometimes they're just struggling to put it down on paper or they sort of don't know what sort of medium they're going to tell the story or even where to begin you know.
And so a lot of my workshops that I’m doing is just sort of showing them just some of the tools of the trade that I’ve used to sort of help me get through, like from basically from scratch, you know. Like how to just create character, where do we start with our characters and you know you're just using that character as kind of a vehicle to drive us through the story. That's where the whole premise of my workshops kind of stemmed from that. And it's been, for me, it's just been super rewarding to kind of get out to these communities locally here, even communities across Australia and even to the bigger city schools to work in these workshops because at the end of the day, ‘I'm feeling like, oh, there's going to be, one of these kids will be a future graphic novelist, I can tell’.
So I find it very rewarding.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
Yeah, I was going to ask what you enjoy most about working with the students, but clearly just being able to be there and share their skills and hopefully kickstart their journey to creative writing and drawing.
Brenton E. McKenna
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, because I've all got great stories. I think, you know, as a younger storyteller myself, I think, you know, like you kind of, although I definitely did used to think I'm the most interesting person in the world, but I think as I've grown as a storyteller, I often think quite the opposite. And one thing I've definitely learned is that there's no such thing as a boring human. Like every single one of us has an incredibly interesting story and it's actually a pleasure and an honour for me to sort of sit down and actually listen to someone's story because it's fantastic and kids are no different. They've all got crazy stories. So, yeah, it's been a real treat.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
I find as well, some kids have the best stories because they're so creative and they see something on the street and go, ‘oh, they're a spy’ and they can just pull worlds out of nowhere.
Brenton E. McKenna
Absolutely. And more often than not, they believe it too, which is, you know, that sort of that extra edge in their stories because their heart and mind is into it and they're convinced, you know.
I think as adults we kind of put the limits on the story, how much we want to absorb, but kids don't have that filter, you know. The more they fall in love with the story, the more real they'll make it, you know, when they tell us the story.
So I find that such a gift that children have and unfortunately, as we're going for adults, I think we might lose that sometimes.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
We spoke earlier about your book, Hairy Holes, which came out last year. But are you working on anything new at the moment that you're allowed to let us know about if you are?
Brenton E. McKenna
Yeah, the Hairy Holes book 2. I think Hairy Holes one did really well.
So my publisher were quite happy with it and we signed a contract to release another 4 more books for Hairy Holes. So number 2 is very close to completion, and I've already started book number 3 as well.
We're even revisiting some of the sort of looking options for re-release of Ubby’s Underdogs as well.
Yeah, at the moment, like I'll probably say that's what I'm at liberty to say. There's a lot of good things that are in the works, but those are things I'll have the stamp of approval to sort of share with everyone.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
It sounds like you've got a lot going on, on even adding on your workshops and visits to schools and everything you do in between. I don't know how you have a spare moment.
Brenton E. McKenna
No, I do enjoy it. I do enjoy it. That's probably the, you know, it's one of those I'm lucky enough that I'm doing something that even if I didn't get paid, I'd still want it. And I think that's the trick, I think when you find your love, I think we always go that extra mile, you know, and we're willing to suffer for it. So, yeah, this has been me.
For me, it's totally worth suffering for. So, no, I totally enjoy it.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
Now, the Premier's Reading Challenge has wrapped up for 2024, but it's always important to keep reading. How important has reading been in your life?
Brenton E. McKenna
Oh, it's been everything in my life. I think my life changed when I got into comic books.
I come from a family of a lot of sports people with basketball, football, and particularly boxing as well, and I was terrible at all of them. I wasn't really good at ball sports and I didn't like getting hit. Until much later, I kind of took up boxing. B
ut comic books was sort of my only sort of haven, I guess. Like even though I couldn't even read the stories, I'd just collect comic books and I'd just draw the pictures.
And I'd scare people, you know. I think, scare people with my drawings and with my ghost stories. And, yeah, that sort of was my thing. And I think as I got older, you know, I kind of got better at it, which kind of led me into getting to like deeper, darker stuff and more mature reading and learning harder words and even learning better ways of telling stories and learning, I guess, what we call the tricks of the trade of how to really get that reader to fall in love with the story, you know.
Yeah, reading's been everything from day one. You know, even before I could read, I think drawing the artwork, just learning the story through pictures has been my sort of, yeah, been the changing point in my life anyway, yeah.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
Reading is so important to students, to young people and to adults as well. Like even if it's just picking up a comic or a magazine you're still learning you're still reading you're still obtaining and doing something new.
Brenton E. McKenna
Yeah absolutely. I said there's always something and you know I don't just say like it happens to me every day, I’m always learning something new somewhere you know through reading. Even if it's sort of like doom scrolling through Instagram, I follow some very informative and enlightening people and I’m always learning something new.
And the moment that happens, I see that really cool little nugget of knowledge. I'm like, ‘oh, there's a great story in that’. So, yeah, reading, even for storytellers and story creators, you know, one story beckons the next one.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
Now, before we let you go, one thing I like to do with all my guests, I like to ask a couple of rapid-fire questions just to see what the first answer off their head is.
Brenton E. McKenna
Oh, okay, cool.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
So the first question is, what is your favourite book?
Brenton E. McKenna
Probably the one, it's a comic series called Crimson. It's just, I mean, there's a lot of great books out there, but that was probably the one that taught me the most about the way I tell stories anyway.
X-Men The Age of Apocalypse and Crimson are probably my two biggest influences. And I'll probably say that, I'll probably say the Crimson comic book series by Humberto Ramos, which are pretty cool.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
What are you reading at the moment?
Brenton E. McKenna
I'm reading, I've kind of gone old school for a little bit and I'm looking at Obelix and Co, which is volume 23 out of the Asterix series.
I've been reading a lot of Asterix lately to sort of, even look at that beautiful art style of cartooning. Yeah.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
Do you prefer nonfiction or fiction?
Brenton E. McKenna
Man, I actually prefer that grey area in between. It's sort of like those fantasy, those kind of the fiction that hides in nonfiction, but I'll probably say fiction for now. Yeah.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
Favourite genre?
Brenton E. McKenna
Horror, horror comedy. Yeah, horror.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
And in the spirit of the Premier's Reading Challenge, how many books do you hope to read for 2024?
Brenton E. McKenna
I'm hoping to read, as far as graphic novels go, I've read Asterix comics. I think there's about over 30 of them, so I'm kind of hoping to get through that by the end of this year.
And as far as graphic novel goes, I've just picked up Vegabond, which I'm literally only a couple of pages into, so I'm hoping to have that finished pretty soon as well.
Norman Jorgensen
Hello, I'm Norman Jorgensen.
Cristy Burne
Hi, I'm Cristy Burne.
Dame Wendy Pye
I'm Dame Wendy Pye.
Renée Treml
Hi, I'm Renée Treml.
Holden Sheppard
I'm Holden Sheppard.
Brenton E. McKenna
Hi, I'm Brenton.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
And I'm Fiona Bartholomaeus.
You've been listening to Between Our Pages, a Premier's Reading Challenge WA podcast.
Thanks to our guest, Brenton E. McKenna, for joining me on this episode.
This episode was recorded on Whadjuk Noongar land. We acknowledge the traditional custodians and pay respects to their elders past, present and emerging.
That's it for season 2 of Between Our Pages, It's been great to speak with some of the amazing writers and illustrators of Western Australia.
Stay tuned to your favourite podcast player for future episodes in the new year.
Thank you so much for listening. Happy reading. We'll see you next time.