In this episode
Shirley Parer from the Secondary Schools, District High Schools and Post-School Pathways team.
Principal Education Officer, Shirley Parer discusses the important time in secondary school when students decide what their future and career will look like. She shares what post-secondary school pathways are available to students to help them continue their education, what supports are available in school, and the benefits of the Career Conversations program for both students and their families.
About Shirley Parer
Shirley Parer is a Principal Education Officer in the Secondary Schools, District High Schools and Post-School Pathways team at the Department of Education. She is also the President of the Career Education Association of WA.
Shirley is dedicated to implementing career development and career related learning in schools. She firmly believes that everyone has a part to play in helping young people build aspirations and acquire the skills they need to navigate their future pathways with confidence.
Shirley leads the creation of career resources for parents and carers and their families, which are made available on the Department’s website and through Career Conversations events held across the state.
In her role with Career Education Association, she represents CEAWA on the Career Industry Council of Australia, the peak body for the career industry.
Transcript
Fiona Bartholomaeus
Welcome, you're listening to Ed Talks WA.
My name is Fiona Bartholomaeus and I'm your host for this episode.
Everyone starts to think about their career paths at different stages. For some people, it's when they start in secondary school. For others, it's when they have to pick their subjects for Year 11 and 12.
Some people are lucky enough to know from an early age what they want to be when they grow up, and there are some grown-ups already working who still don't know.
Currently, at some stage, students in Year 10 and 11 must select subjects that may impact their immediate futures, and it's not easy. Their choices may determine whether they can study their chosen field at university or not.
The Australian Tertiary Admission Rank, or ATAR, is the main way students enter university for some listening that was once called TEE, or Tertiary Entrance Exams.
Nowadays though, there are multiple pathways to careers, and getting an ATAR is one of them. Shirley Parer is a Principal Education Officer in the Secondary Schools, District High Schools and Post-School Pathways team, and is also the President of the Career Education Association of WA.
She joins us to chat about some of the other post-secondary school pathways.
Thank you so much for joining me.
Shirley Parer
Thank you Fiona, it's a pleasure.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
Now ATAR is the traditional way students get into university to start their tertiary education and career. Could you explain for our listeners how the ATAR ranking works?
Shirley Parer
A student's ATAR is calculated using their course and examination results, and it requires at least 4 ATAR courses.
The tertiary entrance aggregate is the sum of your best 4 courses, and it can draw also some bonuses, like 10% bonuses for things like Languages Other Than English and Mathematics Specialist and Mathematics Methods courses and scores.
The maximum TEA or tertiary entrance aggregate is 430.
I'm not going to go into too much detail about that because I believe there's some changes coming in 2027.
So the TEA, the aggregate, is calculated and then it's converted to an ATAR, which tells you where you were ranked relative to other students. The thing to remember is, the ATAR is a rank and it's not a percentage, some people often get the idea that it's a percentage.
So it can range from 99.95 to zero, and it indicates your rank relative to all other students. And that is all other students of Year 12 school leaving age in the total population.
So for example, if you have an ATAR of 70, it indicates that you've achieved as well as or better than 70% of the Year 12 school leaver age population in the state.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
So what are the main benefits of taking this pathway?
Shirley Parer
Students who engage in more complex and challenging courses and content when they're at school are better equipped for a broader range of post-school pathways.
For most students, the academic nature and challenge of ATAR courses prepares them for success at university.
ATAR courses typically have an academic focus and they prepare young people for the rigour of university studies. They also provide an appropriate level of challenge and are excellent preparation for all pathways, not just going to university, but they do give a solid background for students who go on to other training or even into employment. When we think about opportunities for internships and that now, it sets them up for success.
Increasingly, we've got students who are enrolling in ATAR English and ATAR Maths along with vocational education and training courses to better equip them for their apprenticeships. Because for quite a while there, we had quite a high attrition rate out of apprenticeships such as electrical and automotive. And so, it's actually setting them up with the skills in English and mathematics to be able to succeed in that.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
It's interesting to hear that crossover between the 2 and both being beneficial to each other.
Shirley Parer
Absolutely.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
Now, as I said, ATAR isn't the only way to get into university. What other pathways are available for students that identify at different stages that ATAR is maybe not for them?
Shirley Parer
And ATAR is not for everyone, and for some students, this is not the pathway for them.
It might be for a range of different reasons. There are many other pathways to university, as you said. And on the Department's website, we actually have a 4-page document outlining the range of pathways to university.
For example, you can do a university enabling course. These are designed to prepare students for a range of undergraduate courses. They develop skills needed to succeed in tertiary level study, like academic research, writing, writing, numeracy and critical thinking skills. All helpful for whatever pathway you're going to go on.
Another pathway to university is through VET qualifications. These can serve as an excellent pathway steppingstone to higher education. They also can be used to meet the minimum entry requirements for a range of undergraduate courses.
One example that we have at the moment, is we have students in schools undertaking a Certificate IV in preparation for nursing and this provides a pathway into university, into nursing. For some students that will be into a university course in nursing, for others it may help them get into a TAFE level nursing course and then could be articulated onto university.
Another really popular one is the portfolio entry and that requires students to showcase a portfolio of all of their achievements, qualifications, capabilities, and basically their suitability for tertiary study.
There are others that provide concessions for regional students, for Aboriginal students, and quite a few others, but are really worth researching if you're interested in going down that path.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
It's fantastic to hear there's so many different ways for people to continue their education after high school.
Shirley Parer
Absolutely, possibilities are endless. And interestingly, we're hearing from employers more and more that if they can get the right people, they're willing to pay for their learning as well.
And I know personally, my own son's had his qualifications paid for by his employer, but I know of many more too. So it's always worth keeping that in mind as well.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
So how important is it for students to be aware of all possible pathways to tertiary education?
Shirley Parer
Look, it's crucial for young people and their parents and carers to be aware of all the possible pathways.
What we strike in school sometimes is students and young people who are following the path that their parents would like for them because their parents aren't necessarily aware of what all of the newer possibilities are.
Sometimes disruption to learning through health or family issues could be a reason why someone needs to look at other ways of getting to where they want to go. Life is complex and young people are sometimes faced with having to manage aspects of life out of school.
One example of that is we have young people who have to work to sustain themselves or their families in some cases and so they need to be really aware of that they still have options.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
So when is the best time for students to start thinking about their career pathways?
Shirley Parer
Well, typically, as you mentioned, Year 10 has been seen as the time to start thinking about subject selections for senior school and possible career pathways, but it's important to start having career conversations and exploring all the options at a much earlier age.
All the evidence, national and international, is pointing to the fact that we really do need to be starting to have conversations into the early years, not even early high school, but into the primary years.
We now have a Year 9 career taster program that's in place in schools, which gives Year 9s a chance to go out and explore different pathways. And we have pathway planning resources for Year 7 right through to Year 12.
We also have primary schools who are asking for similar resources for their Year 5s and 6s now.
So we have started, those resources were launched in 2015. So we have been doing work in that space for quite a long time, but the momentum is picking up.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
Yeah, thinking back to when I was in school, I would have loved to have a career taster to see all the different things available, potential opportunities I could have gone for.
It was very much Year 11 and 12, what am I going to do?
Shirley Parer
And I think that the Year 9s now are really appreciating it. The feedback that has been gathered by the Department of Training and Workforce Development, who have been overseeing that program, is phenomenal, where 85% of students are saying how much they appreciated the experience.
And I think we have situations where, in my other roles, I get to hear what the other states are doing, and they're quite envious of some of what we're doing here in Western Australia, which is great.
But the pathway planning, as I said, was launched way back then but the importance of that is that it focuses on self-awareness, developing self-awareness to start with, and then career exploration, and then some action planning around that. So all really important steps for young people to be taking.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
And now you and the team run event sessions for parents and students to help them know what pathways are available. Can you tell us a bit more about these?
Shirley Parer
Well, for 3 years now, the Department has been delivering Career Conversations events throughout the state. So we travel to the far north and out to Esperance and the goldfields, mainly in the larger regional centres. The very small ones are as yet missing out, but we do do online sessions.
But this has been delivered under a WA government election commitment, which was about providing parents and carers with career information.
It brings parents, carers and their children all together to hear all the same information at the same time, and that's key, that they're getting the key messages, that they understand the same career pathway and labour market information. And at the core of this campaign is the need to get career conversations started earlier.
So it's just delightful. We have whole families coming along together, mum, dad, 3 or 4 kids, and they're the primary age right through into the teen years.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
Oh, wow.
Shirley Parer
And that's happening more and more this year than it has in the recent years. In the first year, we delivered 48 events. Last year, 53. And we are already up to 46 at the moment.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
Oh, wow. There's still a bit of time left in the year.
Shirley Parer
There is. We've got a few more in Term 4.
But just one example, we run the event at the Joondalup Resort. We ran one. We had a waiting list of 600. We ran a second one. We've run a third and a fourth. And there's still a waiting list of 200.
That's only one of dozens of metropolitan events. So the demand's there.
Parents and families are really becoming aware of how important it is that they have the latest, up-to-date, accurate career pathway and labour market information.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
And how important is it for parents to be involved with their child's career decision making?
Shirley Parer
I think it's critical and these events have really showcased that, that the parents that are there with their kids are coming up. Interestingly, we finished the one-and-a-half-hour event and parents just want to stay and talk. They want to talk to the industry people we have there. They want to talk to us.
They come and they're so grateful and so thankful for having had the opportunity to get that information and hearing it at the same time as their children. So I think the parents are realising it's important.
We've always known that, and there's heaps of research that backs it up, that parents are the greatest influencer of children's career decision making. That information's been around for a very long time. This whole project has been about tackling that and to make sure that rather than just be giving career information at schools, that we're actually giving it to the families as well and that the parents are getting to hear it firsthand.
The information they give to their children is all about their own experience or the experience of relatives or friends.
Things are so different now.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
Changes so quickly.
Shirley Parer
Yes, that's right. Absolutely. The world is changing at a rapid rate.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
How else can parents engage their children with this conversation about careers and have those conversations earlier?
Shirley Parer
I think attending events like ours, but there's lots of university open days, TAFE open days and expos.
There's always the really significant expo down at the convention centre and families do tend to come along to that, but it's really important that they do, that they don't just drop the kids off, that they're actually there and hearing that same information as well.
There's been a lot of new work in this space and that's been, I suppose, the initiative has come from the National Career Institute through the Your Career Pathway and a program called Little Ripples. And they have produced so many resources that can be used by families, they’re designed to be used by families. There's cards, conversation cards to get conversations going.
We have now got a Jobs of the Future set of card game, which is Little Ripples. And we've actually had them produced and we give them out to families at all of our events.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
That's so cool.
Shirley Parer
So they go away with quite a pack of resources and things that are going to help to get things started.
And I think attending things at the school, you know? Schools tell us that, you know, they don't always get big turnout to when they have career information events or information events for the Year 10s.
I think it's important parents get along to those things and hear what their local school where their child is going to, what's being offered and not just making assumptions that they know what's going on there. Get along and take part in whatever's happening.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
And speaking of schools, some schools now have career practitioners. How important is it making sure students are equipped with the right information to help them with their decision making?
Shirley Parer
It's very important. And the project to get the career practitioners into schools, we had significant funding to be able to put qualified career practitioners into 70 public schools as a pilot trial. And those 70 were all put through a graduate certificate in career development, so they are fully qualified and that helps that they're informed about processes and about how to go about sharing information with young people, how to provide career guidance within the parameters of that particular profession. So we're very fortunate to have that.
Part of the key role for those career practitioners is actually to engage the other teachers in the school and I always say every teacher is a careers teacher because it's so important that we provide purpose for learning and relevance of the curriculum and I think that every teacher's got an opportunity to do that. Sometimes simply by showing an occupation video which takes 2 to 3 minutes but shows young people where what they're learning in the classroom fits into someone's job and into life.
It's really key and all of those videos hundreds and hundreds of them are all available to use.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
And it's so important, like you were saying, for kids maybe sitting in English or sitting in maths going, look at all these things you can do with the trigonometry or algorithm that you're learning right now.
Shirley Parer
That's right, and it is part of someone's job.
I often use the example of, you know, the surveyors that you see down the end of your street, you know, the mathematics that they're using or that they had to have to get through that qualification. And it's actually informing really important aspects of your local community design.
So it's not hard to find examples of where curriculum fits in.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
When it comes to students moving from secondary school into university, sometimes some people take a gap year. Is it frowned upon if students decide to take a gap year after they finish school?
Shirley Parer
No, and for some students it can be very beneficial.
I know, for example, our regional students, many of them take a gap year, and that is sometimes a bit to do with the funding arrangements, the allowances that they can get, but because they have to have earned a certain amount of money before they can get the allowance.
But generally, I think it's a very positive experience. It gives them time to deliberate and think about what they thought was going to be their pathway. It gives them opportunities to work, to travel, to volunteer. Volunteering's a fantastic opportunity.
I do think it's wise to accept an offer before you take your gap year and defer. That way you've got a plan. You've got to plan something to come back to. You can still change your mind and if you want to do a different course, you can go and negotiate that, apply for a different one. But I think it sets you up to have that plan to return to learning, and you can do that for TAFE as well. So really important aspect of that.
Just as an aside to that, employers are telling us time and time again that they want young people to come to them with experience of work. They said, we love young people who have worked in retail, worked in Chicken Treat, worked in any range of things. And we really love young people who've volunteered. So it's important that they do get a chance to maybe go and work in a field or several fields over a year.
So very beneficial.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
You mentioned Little Ripples earlier, but what are some other key website resources that people can access?
Shirley Parer
Look, the My Future website is funded, the subscription is funded by the Department of Education and the Department of Training Workforce Development, and that's so that every West Australian can have access to the My Future website. And the My Future website is amazing for school students, all ages, also for school leavers and those in that post-school pathways.
The other one is the Your Career website, and that sits under the National Career Institute, and that is for whole of life. That's for everybody. It doesn't matter what stage of your career you're at, you will find something there. They've got amazing resources as well.
My Future's increasingly including primary school age resources. There's 95,000 registered users in Western Australia. Of that, there's 1,800 parents, and we know that a lot of those have registered since they've been coming to the Career Conversations events, and we've been promoting it. But a big increase in primary and Year 7s, so they're all getting into it.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
Now, the Department, in partnership with Catholic Education Western Australia and the Association of Independent Schools Western Australia, is conducting a review of senior secondary pathways. Can you tell us about this?
Shirley Parer
Look, the review aims to ensure all secondary pathways, including ATAR and Vocational Education and Training, are fit for purpose and meet the current needs of students, and that they are accessible to encourage all students to challenge themselves.
There's been one report out, but it's not finalised yet, so it'll be interesting to see what comes out of the recommendations that have been made.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
So how will this review benefit students in secondary school?
Shirley Parer
Look, there are some encouraging recommendations that have been published in the report.
One of them I was pleased to see is strengthening the delivery of career education and pathway planning. And I think there's a real opportunity here to embrace contemporary approaches that best prepare our young people for the future world of work.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
This podcast was recorded on Whadjuk Noongar land. We acknowledge the traditional custodians and pay respects to their elders past, present and emerging.
Thank you to our guest, Shirley Parer for joining us on the episode.
Notes
Access more information about pathways to university here.
There is information about starting career conversations on this page.
There are Career Conversation events held across the state. Learn more here.
The myfuture website has resources to explore career pathways.